Door 2 door exposing the myths !!

[REDLETTER]

Hows this for a radical idea,

Let our leaders go back & negotiate a better deal for del staff only,
after all its dels taking the brunt again ( longer span etc ) for a cut in pay,
let the other functions pony up to fund this

Another radical idea.....why don't our leaders go out on delivery and trial the uncapped D2Ds for a week on a part time contract (no offense to full timers) and take home the money associated with it. Oh and have no pounch boxes or keys
And the walk only part prepped

[tpost]

Average D2D payments £12.39, call rates 85% you know what they say "there are lies, damned lies and statistics" I am losing money plain and simple

[bunkerland]

For the record Dingo,and any others,i'm a big fan of the product,i want as many as poss and i'm glad the cap is lifted,and i do think it helps secure jobs.
It's just the payment is a piss take,should of been at least a fiver higher,maybe more.And the pro rata not in there.
RM will be making a killing.

Totally agree,i always thought that d2d could be a way to really boost our earnings in the future with a lifting of the cap. I've seen us most years in the pay negotiations arguing the toss over point something of a percentage equating to a couple of pounds or less when d2d can boost pay by £20-£40 a week!

If this comes in how depressing is it going to be when you're hammered with 3,4,5 or more d2ds,and you think what you would have had as opposed to £8!! As for part-timers,they've been shafted even worse,pro-rata d2d? ! There are a few people who will gain in our office but i would say 85% lose,most substantially! This is not what me and my friends/colleagues stood out on the picket line for!

Anyway,moaning about it on here does little good,better to make sure everyone in your office is fully aware of what they would lose and uses their vote accordingly! VOTE NO

[bitchface]

Royal Mail in a growing market is losing its share. Anyone who thinks that Royal Mail are going to contiue to pay door to door out and keep the cap must be living in a dreamword.

Royal Mail turned down £40 millon in contracts due to the cap of 3 in some areas. In addition in the lowest 20 postcodes quality wise the contracts have dried up altogether.

In addition lets not hide from the fact that automation of door to door will ( no if ) take place , you will then get the door to door in a slieve and will then get paid for just one item or the number you do. Secondly a lot of local papers are going out of business and the unadrressed market are currently going to mailing houses who put 5 or 6 items in an envolope and post it via Royal Mail and you dont get paid at all.

LIE NUMBER 1..THE AGREEMENT DOESN'T SAY THEY WILL AT ALL,IT SAYS THEY WILL IF ITS ECONOMICLY VIABLE..NOW WHAT IS THE MAGIC NUMBER OF D2D'S FOR IT TO MAKE IT CHEAPER TO PUT INTO A SLEEVE RATHER THAN TIME PREPPING?4/5/6/7 OR 10 D2D'SIF IT SAID THEY WILL THATS ONE THING PLEASE DONT GIVE US YOUR INTERPRETATION OR HOPE.MANAGERS WILL READ IT DIFFERANTLY.

SOLUTION WAS SIMPLE,REMOVE THE CAP,AND GIVE ROUNDS MORE TIME FOR PREP AND DELIVERY.THAT IS ALL THEY NEEDED TO DO.

Plus probably most important other arguement is that door to door items enable you to have a job in the future. As once it is in workload you count that traffic in your overall office traffic figure. Geo route will be adjusted to reflect that as will the standards.

If you have 500 delivery points and currently an 85% call rate if you then include door to door into workload then your call rate will go up to 88% and therefore will mean that you will have 15 more delivery points plus 30 mins including the prep.

If you have 500 delivery points and 75 % call rate and you then include d2d into your workload your call rate will go up to 80% and with the prep needed appoxmately 50 mins extra.

NUMBER 2..UNLESS IVE BEEN HIT WITH THE STUPID STICK,D2DS SHOULD HAVE ALREADY BEEN IN WORK LOAD.20% A DAY MON-FRI.PREP AFTER LETTERS AND FLATS POINT 6 ON THE OP PROCEDURE.OUR GEO ROUTE WAS SET AT 85% HOUSES,WASNT IT?

Now in regards to the pro rata issue , yes this is contenious issue there is not doubt about that. If the removal of the pro rata was used the supplement will go down to £18 for everyone. However in addition if you gave every part timer the full money well some only work on a Saturday and some work only on Fridays and Saturdays. Not every part timer works on delivery either. Plus part timers get a pay rise worth an extra 2.5 % on the fact the shorter working week comes in.

NUMBER 3, PEOPLE WHO NEVER TOUCH D2DS ARE GETTING PAID THIS MONEY,LIKE MY SUPERVISOR WHO SITS IN THE OFFICE.MY DAY OFF COVER WHO KNOWS FULL WELL I WILL PREP 100% ON MONDAY AND JUST DELIVER WHERE I AM GOING.I WILL SAY IT AGAIN.ALL THEY NEEDED TO DO WAS LIFT THE CAP OR EVEN LOWER PAYMENT PER ITEM/ALL SIZES.30 HRS A WEEK,LARGEST ROUND IN THE OFFICE,PREP AND DELIVERY 5 DAYS A WEEK.I WILL GET 25%LESS MONEY THAN A FULL TIMER. ALL OF WHOM WILL HAVE SENIORITY AND ,ALL BE ON THE SMALLEST ROUNDS IN THEIR NICE WARM VANS..ARE YOU SAYING (2.5% PAY RISE)FULL TIMERS WILL GET ONE HOURS LESS PAY?IF NOT, ITS A PAY RISE FOR ALL. OFF

I dont expect to change peoples minds but the fact is that this supplement will grow from year 2 with every pay rise and is guartneed not based on whether door to door contracts. Its paid 52 weeks per year and when your on leave and sickleave and most importantly will safeguard full time jobs.

NUMBER 5.PART TIMERS ARE LESS LIKELY TO BE SICK ,BECAUSE THEY CANT AFFORD THE LOSS OF MONEY.BUT WHEN ILL(EXTRA HOLIDAY) FULL TIMERS WILL BE PAID FOR D2DS THAT ARE DELIVERED BY THE PART TIMER ,ON STANDARD RATE OVER TIME ,THAT THEY NEED TO DO TO EARN A LIVING WAGE.

If you dont have door to door in workload then you can forget about 75% full time jobs as the industry will be part time. People may complain about some loss of money now but if you dont have the workload needed to protect jobs then you will not have a wage as there will not be the jobs.

THE RATIO IS ALREADY SUPPOSED TO BE 75/25 BUT IT ISNT..WHAT MAKES YOU THINK IT WILL AFTER THIS DEAL...AND AGAIN,READ FOR YOURSEF.IT SAYS IN THE REGION....predominantly full time supported by part time employees. The mix of full time and part time is planned to be around three quarters full time and one quarter part time by 2013. The exact ratio will vary locally depending on the current local mix, needs and employee preferences. EXACT RATIO WILL VARY LOCALLY....NO SHITE..THAT MEAN NOT ANYWHERE NEAR YOU OR ME..

OF COARSE,THATS JUST MY OPINION,IVE GOT MY OWN.I DONT NEED TO WAIT FOR BILLY AND DAVE TO TELL ME WHAT IT IS..

TITLE SHOULD HAVE BEEN.MAKING MYTHS..D2DS NOT GARENTEED TO BE PACKAGED IN SLEEVES,PART TIMERS WILL ,ONCE AGAIN BE SHAFTED,AND 75/25 PERCENT NOT PROMISED ,MORE OF AN ASPIRATION.A VAGUE HOPE

FINAL DRAFT

[flagaman]

If i was a full timer who hates d2d, could i not leave the worst part of my walk, the part that has really long drives, for part timers to deliver and could this not happen every day of the week for part timers. I dont think this is very fair but could happen.

[BELIAL]

Lets start with the facts there will be some losers.


In addition lets not hide from the fact that automation of door to door will ( no if ) take place , you will then get the door to door in a slieve and will then get paid for just one item or the number you do. Secondly a lot of local papers are going out of business and the unadrressed market are currently going to mailing houses who put 5 or 6 items in an envolope and post it via Royal Mail and you dont get paid at all.

Plus probably most important other arguement is that door to door items enable you to have a job in the future. As once it is in workload you count that traffic in your overall office traffic figure. Geo route will be adjusted to reflect that as will the standards.


If you dont have door to door in workload then you can forget about 75% full time jobs as the industry will be part time. People may complain about some loss of money now but if you dont have the workload needed to protect jobs then you will not have a wage as there will not be the jobs.

I'm sorry Dingo but this just reads like utter gobbledegook. You seem to be digging yourself into an ever deeper hole in an attempt to gain approval for this wage cut. Forgetting the weird and wonderful call rate calculations never mind the lesser spotted Saturday premium D2D service,this lot is more slippery than a plate of jellied eels.
Let's take on trust then that D2D will be automated( ),So we get one extra item per household per week. Well it might weigh a ton but what the hell it won't add much time to our prep.
Remembering the most important point about securing jobs ,can you tell me how securing the inclusion of 1 item per week in traffic figures is going to guarantee security of employment?

[Pinky 1]

Now in regards to the pro rata issue , yes this is contenious issue there is not doubt about that. If the removal of the pro rata was used the supplement will go down to £18 for everyone. However in addition if you gave every part timer the full money well some only work on a Saturday and some work only on Fridays and Saturdays. Not every part timer works on delivery either.

And the people who work in delivery offices who don't do deliveries, part time or full time ? They are still going to get the supplement !
So don't discriminate payments between full time and part time delivery staff .....pay us the same.
We all walk the walk, and we all ache the same
If it's only to be £18, so be it.
Oh, and while you're at it, we'll also have our early shift allowance back .......please

[Danelectro]

If you have 500 delivery points and currently an 85% call rate if you then include door to door into workload then your call rate will go up to 88% .

How did you work that out?

Because they're still wanting us to take a percentage daily, the 100% call rate was a fantasy.

Percentage or not bingo hasnt explained how that would work,also what he is missing out is how they are gonna work the call rate out for each duty.

The deliverys in my office are based on a 85% call rate but in future each duties call rate will be set at an average based on traffic figures(how they work the average out im not sure).This runs on from what an area manager told us this week,he says he is able to predict traffic figures up to 2 weeks in advance! and can therefore say next thursday your office will be able to lapse a job based on my traffic predictions etc.

The amount of variables there now are in each duty makes it nigh on impossible to predict (office hours,sorting,delivery span) the way royal mail want to - this is gonna end up with more confrontation with managers and stress in the workplace.

We cant even agree whats the average amount of letters in a tray is! So the above will be a nightmare no matter how many workshops there are.

[Big Daz]

For the record Dingo,and any others,i'm a big fan of the product,i want as many as poss and i'm glad the cap is lifted,and i do think it helps secure jobs.
It's just the payment is a piss take,should of been at least a fiver higher,maybe more.And the pro rata not in there.
RM will be making a killing.

POSTMAN

The CWU position is that the pay rise PT get from the FT SWW off sets pro rata, for me on 30 hours a week with a starting point of £15.45 they are pretty close to the mark. However PT on lower amount of hours will proably not be as lucky as me.

Including my defined are payment of £15 then with the April 2012 payrise I will gross £317 a week for 30 hours which if the agreement delivers reasonable working rates and loads with DTD being 100% in RM time is not bad deal for a 30 hour week.

[Steviea34]

Hi Dingo if a L/R 20 hour contract covers a 30 hour duty, what pro rata payment will
they get i.e 20 or 30 hr payment

Cheers

[Broxi51]

POSTMAN

The CWU position is that the pay rise PT get from the FT SWW off sets pro rata, for me on 30 hours a week with a starting point of £15.45 they are pretty close to the mark. However PT on lower amount of hours will proably not be as lucky as me.

Including my defined are payment of £15 then with the April 2012 payrise I will gross £317 a week for 30 hours which if the agreement delivers reasonable working rates and loads with DTD being 100% in RM time is not bad deal for a 30 hour week.

These are the people who need the money the most. The ones on 22.5 hour contracts or less who are struggling to survive and often have to do OT every week. These are the people the CWU should have made priority to help.
The hardest part of my duty is the walking and the delivering and I do not understand why the PTers who struggle round a delivery just like the FTers and do all the D2D's like a FTer should be penalised because they get less hours in the office.

[Martin Walsh]

For the record postman basic pay without London weighting is currently £ 347.61. With the 2% and the new supplement pay will go up to £375.16 and in year 3 with the compound effect it will be at £390.73 and in all pay rises thereafter it will increase regardless of whether door to door increases or is automated. Apart from it not being pensionable it is guaranteed.

Of course for inner and outer London it is more as the supplement will increase with London pay ranges.

Now of course everyone wanted the supplement higher but last year only 51.4 million paid out whereas in the agreement the CWU has captured 55 milllion.

Some posters state they dont need extra work but when you have walk sequencing and that reduces your indoor element then you will need extra work to mantain jobs.

Look at UNITE in the British airways situration they were willing to take two pay cuts in return for safeguarding jobs. Well the CWU have captured the total monies for door to door and got it into workload which will save jobs in an environment where 48% of companies got a zero per cent pay deal this year.

Yes I can understand if your losing money of course you will be angry. But do you really think that door to door will continue as they are by rejecting the deal.

We are facing unprecedented change. The company is not in a great financial postion, in simple terms for the next 3 years they will be spending more than they receive. This is without the new pension deficit and with not having to repay the commercial loan for 3 years.

[savo]

Nice try Neville, take your piece of paper back to Ward & Hayes and tell em where to shove it

[BELIAL]

For the record postman basic pay without London weighting is currently £ 347.61. With the 2% and the new supplement pay will go up to £375.16 and in year 3 with the compound effect it will be at £390.73 and in all pay rises thereafter it will increase regardless of whether door to door increases or is automated. Apart from it not being pensionable it is guaranteed.

Of course for inner and outer London it is more as the supplement will increase with London pay ranges.

Now of course everyone wanted the supplement higher but last year only 51.4 million paid out whereas in the agreement the CWU has captured 55 milllion.

Some posters state they dont need extra work but when you have walk sequencing and that reduces your indoor element then you will need extra work to mantain jobs.

Look at UNITE in the British airways situration they were willing to take two pay cuts in return for safeguarding jobs. Well the CWU have captured the total monies for door to door and got it into workload which will save jobs in an environment where 48% of companies got a zero per cent pay deal this year.

Yes I can understand if your losing money of course you will be angry. But do you really think that door to door will continue as they are by rejecting the deal.

We are facing unprecedented change. The company is not in a great financial postion, in simple terms for the next 3 years they will be spending more than they receive. This is without the new pension deficit and with not having to repay the commercial loan for 3 years.

You keep this up Dingo and you will have no problem whatsoever getting appointed as a non executive director of a privatised RM. You talk the talk.

[BELIAL]

Nice try Neville, take your piece of paper back to Ward & Hayes and tell em where to shove it

My thoughts exactly but much better put