Why I'll be voting no...

[opgpat]

Something in plain black and white unambiguous language would be nice.

[mailman71]

i will be voting no because in my office there will be to many grey areas in this agreement but if i was in planet zonc that the pec members seem to be on i maybe would vote yes.

[fishtank]

I will be voting no because it is one of the founding principles of the trade union movement to protect the weakest amongst us not the strongest.
So when certain posters come onto this site banging on about how strong they are as a division and "Where were you when we were at the gate"
i know they are not proper trade unionists.

This agreement ,like the disaster that went before it will punish the so-called weaker offices allowing Royal Mail a free hand to once again divide us,pick us off and finally move in on those who consider themselves strong.It is as if nothing has been learned from P&M 2007,the wording is similar,the hopeful phrases about relationships are the same and the outcome i fear will be the same.

The pay deal is quite frankly laughable.
The delivery model is unproven and half-baked.
The D2D into workload is half a good idea ruined by the lifting of the cap entirely and the payment structure.
And the longer and later saturdays makes a mockery of Royal Mails family friendly agenda.
The performance standards have yet to be published but if statements like "we want everybody up to the top 10%" are anything to go by i'm not expecting much.

I will VOTE NO.
I have a conscience.

[wranglered]

I will be voting no because it is one of the founding principles of the trade union movement to protect the weakest amongst us not the strongest.
So when certain posters come onto this site banging on about how strong they are as a division and "Where were you when we were at the gate"
i know they are not proper trade unionists.

This agreement ,like the disaster that went before it will punish the so-called weaker offices allowing Royal Mail a free hand to once again divide us,pick us off and finally move in on those who consider themselves strong.It is as if nothing has been learned from P&M 2007,the wording is similar,the hopeful phrases about relationships are the same and the outcome i fear will be the same.

The pay deal is quite frankly laughable.
The delivery model is unproven and half-baked.
The D2D into workload is half a good idea ruined by the lifting of the cap entirely and the payment structure.
And the longer and later saturdays makes a mockery of Royal Mails family friendly agenda.
The performance standards have yet to be published but if statements like "we want everybody up to the top 10%" are anything to go by i'm not expecting much.

I will VOTE NO.
I have a conscience.

FANTASTIC POST FISHTANK...SAYS IT ALL....

[clashcityrocker]

The pay deal is quite frankly laughable.

But what union has achieved a good pay deal for its members? What deal did anyone really expect from a technically bankrupt company in an ailing business?

The D2D into workload is half a good idea ruined by the lifting of the cap entirely and the payment structure.

But if you don't lift the cap you end up turning away business. That doesn't benefit anyone. D2D into workload is a good thing but it is short term pain for long term gain.

And the longer and later saturdays makes a mockery of Royal Mails family friendly agenda

Agreed but you know how this will play in the press. As young soldiers die in Afghanistan the posties are upset because they have to work an extra hour on Saturday.

The performance standards have yet to be published but if statements like "we want everybody up to the top 10%" are anything to go by i'm not expecting much.

This is the real issue and for me will be the decisive one. Will we have a fair and achievable workload? If we are getting a fair wage for a fair days work then I don't see how the union has let its members down.

[creedscat]

Voting NO as there is not one thing in the 80 pages of shite i can agree to or like the look of. The company now is all set up and looks a great financial proposition for a potential buyer. So the part about job security also the 3.5% pay rise in year 3 and the possibility of recieving these phantom shares wont be fooking happening. Crozier has done what he was originally employed to do and is moving on.

[mazza111]

I will be voting no on the D2D issue alone. Think that's a big enough one to get our heads around. I really don't see why I should get paid any less that a full time member of staff for delivering the same amount of D2D items. This is a cut for full timers, but a bigger cut for part timers.

Does everyone realise they are counting election notices being in this D2D count? So even more money lost. This was pointed out by our trainee manager today. So not sure if it's true or not.

I have been a great believer in unions in the past but feel very let down by this bunch of cowboys.

[realmichael]

I will be voting no because it is one of the founding principles of the trade union movement to protect the weakest amongst us not the strongest.
So when certain posters come onto this site banging on about how strong they are as a division and "Where were you when we were at the gate"
i know they are not proper trade unionists.

This agreement ,like the disaster that went before it will punish the so-called weaker offices allowing Royal Mail a free hand to once again divide us,pick us off and finally move in on those who consider themselves strong.It is as if nothing has been learned from P&M 2007,the wording is similar,the hopeful phrases about relationships are the same and the outcome i fear will be the same.

The pay deal is quite frankly laughable.
The delivery model is unproven and half-baked.
The D2D into workload is half a good idea ruined by the lifting of the cap entirely and the payment structure.
And the longer and later saturdays makes a mockery of Royal Mails family friendly agenda.
The performance standards have yet to be published but if statements like "we want everybody up to the top 10%" are anything to go by i'm not expecting much.

I will VOTE NO.
I have a conscience.

[fishtank]

But what union has achieved a good pay deal for its members? What deal did anyone really expect from a technically bankrupt company in an ailing business?

I didn't expect a great deal or even a good deal but bearing in mind we have not had a payrise since 2008 i was certainly not expecting a pay cut.

But if you don't lift the cap you end up turning away business. That doesn't benefit anyone. D2D into workload is a good thing but it is short term pain for long term gain.

Why is it short term pain? If anything as the D2D business grows so will the pain and you have completely ignored the issue of pay structure.

Agreed but you know how this will play in the press. As young soldiers die in Afghanistan the posties are upset because they have to work an extra hour on Saturday.

.

Quite frankly CCR my kids don't care how it plays out in the press and to bring the deaths of servicemen into the post to make a point is beneath you.

This is the real issue and for me will be the decisive one. Will we have a fair and achievable workload? If we are getting a fair wage for a fair days work then I don't see how the union has let its members down.

Since members "fair wage" has decreased in this deal do you honesty see the "fair days work" decreasing in line with it.
Of course i may be wrong and removing the cap on D2D along with the protection of a nationally agreed delivery span may lead to a decrease in already unmanagable workloads.
If that turns out to be the case i will eat my hat....my coat and my shiny new CAT boots.

[Rennie]

Some great posts!
I still cannot understand the reason why our union thinks removing the d2d payment for each individual item is good?
The current system is totally fair and transparent. You do the work and you get paid for that work! We all share the profits! Simple!!
Why alienate the workforce with a system that is totally unfair? pro-rata! Large duties v small duties! Giving the money to non delivery staff! and so on!!
Why not lift the D2D cap but continue to pay the current rates? This would have led to a dramatic increase in pay for all the extra work involved, to all delivery staff. Maybe more than double we get now! The argument about putting D2D into workload is all bollocks. We already do 20% /day during our duty prep time. Never in our own time!
They have made a massive error in judgement on this one issue alone! RM's desire was to remove the three limit so they could expand the product. Now they have it all as all future profits will go straight to RM! All we'll get will be pennies increase in the 20.60 supplement! Shame on them! And this took four months to negotiate!! Feck a duck!

[singingpostman]

Some great posts!
I still cannot understand the reason why our union thinks removing the d2d payment for each individual item is good?
The current system is totally fair and transparent. You do the work and you get paid for that work! We all share the profits! Simple!!
Why alienate the workforce with a system that is totally unfair? pro-rata! Large duties v small duties! Giving the money to non delivery staff! and so on!!
Why not lift the D2D cap but continue to pay the current rates? This would have led to a dramatic increase in pay for all the extra work involved, to all delivery staff. Maybe more than double we get now! The argument about putting D2D into workload is all bollocks. We already do 20% /day during our duty prep time. Never in our own time!
They have made a massive error in judgement on this one issue alone! RM's desire was to remove the three limit so they could expand the product. Now they have it all as all future profits will go straight to RM! All we'll get will be pennies increase in the 20.60 supplement! Shame on them! And this took four months to negotiate!! Feck a duck!

I cant improve on this so i will just give it a big round of

[clashcityrocker]

Why, when D2D goes into workload, would you still expect a separate payment for it?
D2D into workload has been union policy for donkey's years. They have finally achieved it and then the braying starts.
I met a postie from a different office recently. On Tuesday he had 23kg of mail to deliver. I had approx 55kg. How is it fair we were paid the same daily wage? I delivered over twice as much mail as him.
My guess is the wealthier the area you deliver in. the more D2D items you get. Therefore our wages are already something of a postcode lottery. Is that fair?
If it could be shown that the total of D2D payments has now been shared equally amongst posties across the country wouldn't that be a fairer system? I think it's called wealth distribution and having bleated about it since the release of "White Man in the Hammersmith Palais" I think this is the first time I have actually seen it in action.
Royal Mail now has to make the product grow. There is no guarantee they will manage to do that because the quality of our service is poor.The quality is poor because no-one takes D2D seriously because it is a separate part of our workload. Not any more. And why would anyone want to pay for advertising that everyone knows just goes straight in the bin?
And under the current system what would happen if you went off sick for 4 months? You'd get f**k all. Now at least you know what will be in your wages 52 weeks/year.
And if the average postie gets £30 - a 30 hr contract will lose £15/week assuming they are not in reciept of ESA.
A long standing full-timer loses £10 on D2D and £12 ESA = £22. How is that worse for the p/t?
Obviously there will be winners and losers but I wouldn't assume that everyone will lose under this system.
And although many posters have said what they will lose - what happens when we move to park and loop? They may well have less to deliver anyway when/if they change rounds? And how does it work in park and loop? Do you count individually how many you deliver or do you total them and share it between you?

[numan]

Why, when D2D goes into workload, would you still expect a separate payment for it?
D2D into workload has been union policy for donkey's years. They have finally achieved it and then the braying starts.
I met a postie from a different office recently. On Tuesday he had 23kg of mail to deliver. I had approx 55kg. How is it fair we were paid the same daily wage? I delivered over twice as much mail as him.
My guess is the wealthier the area you deliver in. the more D2D items you get. Therefore our wages are already something of a postcode lottery. Is that fair?
If it could be shown that the total of D2D payments has now been shared equally amongst posties across the country wouldn't that be a fairer system? I think it's called wealth distribution and having bleated about it since the release of "White Man in the Hammersmith Palais" I think this is the first time I have actually seen it in action.
Royal Mail now has to make the product grow. There is no guarantee they will manage to do that because the quality of our service is poor.The quality is poor because no-one takes D2D seriously because it is a separate part of our workload. Not any more. And why would anyone want to pay for advertising that everyone knows just goes straight in the bin?
And under the current system what would happen if you went off sick for 4 months? You'd get f**k all. Now at least you know what will be in your wages 52 weeks/year.
And if the average postie gets £30 - a 30 hr contract will lose £15/week assuming they are not in reciept of ESA.
A long standing full-timer loses £10 on D2D and £12 ESA = £22. How is that worse for the p/t?
Obviously there will be winners and losers but I wouldn't assume that everyone will lose under this system.
And although many posters have said what they will lose - what happens when we move to park and loop? They may well have less to deliver anyway when/if they change rounds? And how does it work in park and loop? Do you count individually how many you deliver or do you total them and share it between you?

Well the company line and union line is that they've already had to turn D2D work away, so I'd say there's already no doubt that they're going to be on the increase.

[welshy808]

Why, when D2D goes into workload, would you still expect a separate payment for it?
D2D into workload has been union policy for donkey's years. They have finally achieved it and then the braying starts.
I met a postie from a different office recently. On Tuesday he had 23kg of mail to deliver. I had approx 55kg. How is it fair we were paid the same daily wage? I delivered over twice as much mail as him.
My guess is the wealthier the area you deliver in. the more D2D items you get. Therefore our wages are already something of a postcode lottery. Is that fair?
If it could be shown that the total of D2D payments has now been shared equally amongst posties across the country wouldn't that be a fairer system? I think it's called wealth distribution and having bleated about it since the release of "White Man in the Hammersmith Palais" I think this is the first time I have actually seen it in action.
Royal Mail now has to make the product grow. There is no guarantee they will manage to do that because the quality of our service is poor.The quality is poor because no-one takes D2D seriously because it is a separate part of our workload. Not any more. And why would anyone want to pay for advertising that everyone knows just goes straight in the bin?
And under the current system what would happen if you went off sick for 4 months? You'd get f**k all. Now at least you know what will be in your wages 52 weeks/year.
And if the average postie gets £30 - a 30 hr contract will lose £15/week assuming they are not in reciept of ESA.
A long standing full-timer loses £10 on D2D and £12 ESA = £22. How is that worse for the p/t?
Obviously there will be winners and losers but I wouldn't assume that everyone will lose under this system.
And although many posters have said what they will lose - what happens when we move to park and loop? They may well have less to deliver anyway when/if they change rounds? And how does it work in park and loop? Do you count individually how many you deliver or do you total them and share it between you?

D2D have always been part of my workload all this agreement does is get royal mail to admit it and use them in georoute revisions.
Time has always been available for prep of D2D so no difference there.
So why wouldn't I expect My Union to negotiate that I kept the payment for the D2D that I do.
Why do you think that it's right that a firms driver get a share of D2D but an AG who goes out in all winds and weathers delivering the junk gets less.
If I was sick for 4 months I would expect the person who had to actually deliver them to get paid for them.
I am on Park and loop shared vehicle normally we split the payment for the D2D but that depends on the floater as he doesn't want to do them when he is on leave we also give the floater his 20% others in the Office claim for their individual items. both systems work a lot better than those proposed in the agreement.

[wranglered]

mmmm...Clash City Rocker...Joe Strummer was not what he seemed either....son of a diplomat if i recall...

you say....I don't wanna hear what the rich are doing...so no interest in the funfest at ridiculous cost in Bournemouth???

I say....What's my name?.....dingo?...the truth?...lovejoy...?

let's face it CCR...the CWU are now the City of the Dead....or perhaps the last gang in town

the deal is lots less pay, lots more work whatever the debate on door to doors....

door to doors every day...ugh....