UPDATE FROM HQ

[floydy]

regarding the d2d issue and everyone getting the supplement can someone answer the following questions? (if they haven't already been asked)

1. why should someone who doesn't delivery d2d ie a parcel man get the supplement (am i right with this?)

2. why should a rural man with 200 drops get paid the same as the walking postie with 600 drops?

am sorry but if that's what the union/management are proposing it's just plain stupid, people are going to agree to that

hazzeem025

It's all about total/overall workload, if your working the same amount of hours and all your hours are filled with bona fida RML work then whats the problem? Look at it from the perspective of someone looking in from the outside. They see 2OPG's working all their paid work hours day day out, why should one get more money than the other? The only difference between the two is the amount of any given type of work they are doing when working every hour they are paid for.

well that would make a nice change from what go's on now, handful in my office working the hours paid for!!!!


Fact im afraid

[GHOSTman]

regarding the d2d issue and everyone getting the supplement can someone answer the following questions? (if they haven't already been asked)


It's all about total/overall workload, if your working the same amount of hours and all your hours are filled with bona fida RML work then whats the problem? Look at it from the perspective of someone looking in from the outside. They see 2OPG's working all their paid work hours day day out, why should one get more money than the other? The only difference between the two is the amount of any given type of work they are doing when working every hour they are paid for.

I think you're right BIg Daz. It's going to take a change of thinking on this. If...and its a BIG IF...this D2D in to work load is done properly it could solve a lot of the bullying and harrassment issues in our office. I'm only speaking for my office here but prepping D2D's is one of the main reasons we struggle to complete as they are not currently done properly. i.e 20% per day....I don't have time to prep 20% on a wed - Fri without going over my time...then the confrontations start. I'm with you on the bit about everyone finishing on time. It doesn't really matter how many d2d's you get, or how many delivery points you have as long as we all finish on time with no running or harrassment.

[fishtank]

regarding the d2d issue and everyone getting the supplement can someone answer the following questions? (if they haven't already been asked)

1. why should someone who doesn't delivery d2d ie a parcel man get the supplement (am i right with this?)

2. why should a rural man with 200 drops get paid the same as the walking postie with 600 drops?

am sorry but if that's what the union/management are proposing it's just plain stupid, people are going to agree to that

hazzeem025

It's all about total/overall workload, if your working the same amount of hours and all your hours are filled with bona fida RML work then whats the problem? Look at it from the perspective of someone looking in from the outside. They see 2OPG's working all their paid work hours day day out, why should one get more money than the other? The only difference between the two is the amount of any given type of work they are doing when working every hour they are paid for.

The problem with this theory daz is that the difference in workload with D2D rises exponentially.
If you have 200 drops and 3 D2Ds you have 600 to prep,if you get 4 you have 800.
If you have 600 drops and 3 D2Ds you have 1800 to prep if you get 4 you have 2400.
You have gone from a difference of 400 with 1 D2D to a difference of 1600 with 4.
When D2D enters workload can you see this discrepency being addressed by management?

Early shift allowance or unsocial hours is also a "norm" across a large chunk of british industry.
But the point is daz Why should i lose part of my D2D "supplement" because i already EARN my early shift allowance.

[dvbuk55]

Fine Daz but i start at 5.00 so why shoudn't i keep my early shift allowance.

Simple, the membership gave CWU powers that be a mandate to scrap the early shift allowance, but retain the payment of a indentical sum of money for all staff in post at the time of the agreement. A mandate was given to look at absorbing that payment with the fall back of keeping that payment if agreement could not be reached.

Rightly or wrongly CWU HQ are pursuing a policy of pay restructuring as well as a pay rise. The challenge is to prevent winners and loosers, this requires intelligent thought from RML so that everybody can complete their allocated workload(especially door to doors) day in day out.

IMO quite rightly. However, in order for those on grandfather rights to benefit they should receive a one off payment in addition to the pay rise - a not inconsiderable sum due to the length of service still to do and in fact it should be based on that to be fair. Everyone would then be on an equal footing probably for the first time in a long time.

[fishtank]

Fine Daz but i start at 5.00 so why shoudn't i keep my early shift allowance.

Simple, the membership gave CWU powers that be a mandate to scrap the early shift allowance, but retain the payment of a indentical sum of money for all staff in post at the time of the agreement. A mandate was given to look at absorbing that payment with the fall back of keeping that payment if agreement could not be reached.

Rightly or wrongly CWU HQ are pursuing a policy of pay restructuring as well as a pay rise. The challenge is to prevent winners and loosers, this requires intelligent thought from RML so that everybody can complete their allocated workload(especially door to doors) day in day out.

IMO quite rightly. However, in order for those on grandfather rights to benefit they should receive a one off payment in addition to the pay rise - a not inconsiderable sum due to the length of service still to do and in fact it should be based on that to be fair. Everyone would then be on an equal footing probably for the first time in a long time.

It may be a reasonable solution dvb but i would also have to consider the fact that my ESA is pensionable.

[GHOSTman]

regarding the d2d issue and everyone getting the supplement can someone answer the following questions? (if they haven't already been asked)

1. why should someone who doesn't delivery d2d ie a parcel man get the supplement (am i right with this?)

2. why should a rural man with 200 drops get paid the same as the walking postie with 600 drops?

am sorry but if that's what the union/management are proposing it's just plain stupid, people are going to agree to that

hazzeem025

It's all about total/overall workload, if your working the same amount of hours and all your hours are filled with bona fida RML work then whats the problem? Look at it from the perspective of someone looking in from the outside. They see 2OPG's working all their paid work hours day day out, why should one get more money than the other? The only difference between the two is the amount of any given type of work they are doing when working every hour they are paid for.

The problem with this theory daz is that the difference in workload with D2D rises exponentially.
If you have 200 drops and 3 D2Ds you have 600 to prep,if you get 4 you have 800.
If you have 600 drops and 3 D2Ds you have 1800 to prep if you get 4 you have 2400.
You have gone from a difference of 400 with 1 D2D to a difference of 1600 with 4.
When D2D enters workload can you see this discrepency being addressed by management?

Early shift allowance or unsocial hours is also a "norm" across a large chunk of british industry.
But the point is daz Why should i lose part of my D2D "supplement" because i already EARN my early shift allowance.

As I said earlier, If and it's a BIG IF managment did address the discrepency, D2D into work load could work. But whether we can trust management to address the issue is obviously very debateable. They've shown no reason why they would start to behave rationally towards revisions of walks. I've heard it said that ACAS might oversee the implementation of the agreement, anyone hold out any hope that this would help the revisions be implemented properly.

ps...I used to get an early shift payment from 5:30am - 6am...NDA I think it was called...worth about £4 a week if i remember rightly. It was just stopped when royal mail changed our start times to later. No grand father rights we just lost it. does this sound right?

[Big Daz]

Is the new supplement going to be pensionable, and are d to d payments currently pensionable?

[Big Daz]

Ghostman

No

I was on the same start time of 0530 am and still get the £4.65 payment.

[GHOSTman]

Ghostman

No

I was on the same start time of 0530 am and still get the £4.65 payment.

That's very interesting Big Daz. for about 18 months after our hours changed we continued to get it. Then all of a sudden one day we were all called into the doms office to be told we owed royal mail about £350 because we shouldn't have been getting the allowance, which they said we would have to pay back at a tenner a week. Our Area rep knew all about it, and assured us Royalmail were in the right. Do you think we could have a case to challenge royal mail on this? If so, How do we go about it?

[Martin Walsh]

Good debate on door to door.

Door to door in its present postion is unsustainable regardless of whether there is an agreement or not. Royal Mail want to relaunch the product and want to ensure that quality is increased. There are only two possible outcomes one is they put it into workload or they recruit a different workforce which delivers door to door.

The union in line with conference policy believes that it would be madness that when delivery staff will be spending less time on both prep and IPS that we dont attempt to protect jobs by making sure we have more items to prep. Unaddressed items are a growing part of the market and is a very cut thoat part of the market with TNT amongst overs expanding their operations in some parts of the UK and the fear is that they might take some mailsort items as well and may deliver on just one or two days in a town or city as they are not burden with having to deliver 6 days per week to every address in the country.

Now it is only natural that people will look at what they either stand to gain or lose from any deal. However the figures I have seen quoted on here about what the supplement will be is wrong and is therefore only guess work.

At the moment the supplement will be made up of 3 parts

1. if you are still in reciept of an early shift allowance

2. A share of the current cost of delivering door to door

3. New money

Now lets examining the issue on door to door last year Royal Mail payed out a total of 55 million in door 2 door money. there are 99 thousand full time equilivnts employed in deliveries within Royal Mail and thats worth appoxmately £552 per year if everyone got the sume.

If only 60000 done door to door then it would be £916

If only 50 000 performed them it would work out £ 1375

However the stark reality is that the number of items vary from office to office , the number of delivery points per walk within a delivery office varies as do who does them. In other words because it not counted within workload its not managed right.

fishtank points out a valid point the manager does not ask a reserve or RDC to do door to door as he might not finish. Well when door to door is included within the overall traffic then it cannot be fudged by the manager any longer.

Equally Royal mail have already stated it will intially cost to put into work load they estimate appoxmately 40 million.

With regards to the early shift allowance well under network 2007 we were going to have later starts and it was only going to be protected a maxiumn of 3 years , the union in the end got grandfather rights.

The problem with the early shift allowances is that not every one recieves them and anyone who joined after 2007 in those offices do not recieve them. Equally over the next 18 months with one outward pass meaning mail centres will not have work in deliveries offices before 0600 then the chances of a new early shift allowance is long gone.

In addition the reason why the both door to door and the early shift allowance is going to be included in a supplement is that both of these elements can be increased within normal pay rounds in the future. if you exclude the early shift allowance from the supplement then its value will just continue to reduce.

At the end of the day make you mind up when you see the deal and read it all 60 pages of it.

[fishtank]

I will make my point simply,my gross pay this week without overtime was 388.91

Basic pay 347.61
ESA 12.37
D2D 28.93
total 388.91

That is not including driving allowance as i don't have an answer on that yet although i suspect that will disappear as well.
under the new system and i know £30 is a guess.

Basic pay 347.61
supplement 30.00
total 377.61

Just to break even this week the supplement would have to be £41.30 and i am certainly not going to agree to the lifting of the D2D cap to break even.
It's all very well saying i would get a supplement 52 weeks a year but i get my allowances 52 weeks a year so surely this would benefit me less than say,someone who doesn't get any allowances.

[Cut Off King]

\GHOSTman wrote

As I said earlier, If and it's a BIG IF managment did address the discrepency, D2D into work load could work. But whether we can trust management to address the issue is obviously very debateable. They've shown no reason why they would start to behave rationally towards revisions of walks.

If D2D was included into workload ( eg if your office traffic is about 100,000 , but now that D2D is included in the figures its measured as say 120,000 ) Do you honestly think that RM will put hours back into offices to allow everyone to finish on time ?

OR, will they simply just move the goalposts and say that office traffic has gone down to 80,000 + 20,000 D2D's = NO extra hours needed in the office.

Anyone who then can't complete within time will be harrassed for "performance issues"

PS - Didn't the CWU say that they wanted an independant body to look at workload / reasonable work rate? Whatever happened to that idea ?
Its not been mentioned lately, maybe its been shelfed for further discussion at a later date!

[GHOSTman]

I will make my point simply,my gross pay this week without overtime was 388.91

Basic pay 347.61
ESA 12.37
D2D 28.93
total 388.91

That is not including driving allowance as i don't have an answer on that yet although i suspect that will disappear as well.
under the new system and i know £30 is a guess.

Basic pay 347.61
supplement 30.00
total 377.61

Just to break even this week the supplement would have to be £41.30 and i am certainly not going to agree to the lifting of the D2D cap to break even.
It's all very well saying i would get a supplement 52 weeks a year but i get my allowances 52 weeks a year so surely this would benefit me less than say,someone who doesn't get any allowances.

Fishtank, I'm interested to know your views on this...if the supplement for D2D's was £41.30, and the revision was done PROPERLY to give enough time to prep the D2D and you could finish your walk on time with no bullying and harrassment would you accept the £41.30 with the cap lifted? I should add that I don't trust management to implement a revision properly! My own view is that if i could get finished on time not having to run around I would accept a flat supplement for all. one thing I would add...if we end up delivering 6 items...then the product is obviously working...and we're doing our bit by upping the quality of the product.....I'd be expecting a share of the product growth...ie higher supplement. (perhaps i'm naieve in this view)

[BELIAL]

Poor old Dingo gets all the flack.
Does say something about how our leadership operates though. Tell the w*****s nothing till we decide.
On the point of D2D's ,just call the bloodsuckers bluff.Go ahead and recruit: supply :maintain;manage; pay an alternative workforce ,I'm sure it will work out more cost effective
Just more threats and bluster ,we ain't all that stupid ,f***ing halfwits

[GHOSTman]

\GHOSTman wrote

As I said earlier, If and it's a BIG IF managment did address the discrepency, D2D into work load could work. But whether we can trust management to address the issue is obviously very debateable. They've shown no reason why they would start to behave rationally towards revisions of walks.

If D2D was included into workload ( eg if your office traffic is about 100,000 , but now that D2D is included in the figures its measured as say 120,000 ) Do you honestly think that RM will put hours back into offices to allow everyone to finish on time ?

OR, will they simply just move the goalposts and say that office traffic has gone down to 80,000 + 20,000 D2D's = NO extra hours needed in the office.

Anyone who then can't complete within time will be harrassed for "performance issues"

PS - Didn't the CWU say that they wanted an independant body to look at workload / reasonable work rate? Whatever happened to that idea ?
Its not been mentioned lately, maybe its been shelfed for further discussion at a later date!

cut off king. TBH I don't trust royalmail one little bit. I've seen to many botched revisions over the last 10+ years to last a lifetime. it's all just a bit of a theoretical debate on here, all... if this ...what if that.....will this. In answer to your question, no i dont believe any hours will get put back in mate.

Where does this leave us?, I know the rounds are to big at present, and i'm sick of the constant battles with managers.