UPDATE FROM HQ

[bwfcmaddog]

if it's a NO then we go back to industrial action only this time there will be no calling it off on empty promises - this time it really will be sh*t or bust,

But what if the outcome is sh!t. The trade union movement isn't strong enough - there isn't going to be a National Strike.
From what some posters have said about the level of support in their offices I am not sure the CWU is strong enough to call an all-out strike.
History is against us - the law will be used against us, strikebreakers will be brought in again, and everything from the increase in p/t workers to Thatcher's right to buy policy makes an all-out strike a virtual non-starter.
I might agree with you but if I had a position of responsibility within the CWU hierarchy I would think very carefully before taking my members down that road.

I said sh*t or bust and I meant it. If it means wild catting, court action, union funds sequestered, fines and union officers jailed then that's what it takes - we pay them, the monies are ours. We do not pay for lip service and collusion with Royal Mail and the Government.

We either believe the fight is right or we don't - the time for indecision is long gone. Some bloke has a line on here that it is better to fight and die than live life on your knees - he's right - I think there has been enough genuflection latterly to last us a lifetime.

f---k m-e thats to the bleeding point???

[postghost]

So what's everyone up to this weekend before the apocalypse on Monday??

[postghost]

For those that haven't seen the documentary, here's a wee sneak peek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl9_GXvNktI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[dvbuk55]

For those that haven't seen the documentary, here's a wee sneak peek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl9_GXvNktI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One of my favourites - not too keen on delivering the mail on horseback - but the killing I could really get to like.

[Danelectro]

if it's a NO then we go back to industrial action only this time there will be no calling it off on empty promises - this time it really will be sh*t or bust,

But what if the outcome is sh!t. The trade union movement isn't strong enough - there isn't going to be a National Strike.
From what some posters have said about the level of support in their offices I am not sure the CWU is strong enough to call an all-out strike.
History is against us - the law will be used against us, strikebreakers will be brought in again, and everything from the increase in p/t workers to Thatcher's right to buy policy makes an all-out strike a virtual non-starter.
I might agree with you but if I had a position of responsibility within the CWU hierarchy I would think very carefully before taking my members down that road.

I said sh*t or bust and I meant it. If it means wild catting, court action, union funds sequestered, fines and union officers jailed then that's what it takes - we pay them, the monies are ours. We do not pay for lip service and collusion with Royal Mail and the Government.

We either believe the fight is right or we don't - the time for indecision is long gone. Some bloke has a line on here that it is better to fight and die than live life on your knees - he's right - I think there has been enough genuflection latterly to last us a lifetime.

Brilliantly put dvbuk55,i understand clashcityrockers point but that was the same point put to me by my area rep before the ballot and we went on to get 75% yes vote.Furthermore if the union aint strong enough then Royal Mail will go on to break any agreement that comes out of the present talks anyway.

[fishtank]

if it's a NO then we go back to industrial action only this time there will be no calling it off on empty promises - this time it really will be sh*t or bust,

But what if the outcome is sh!t. The trade union movement isn't strong enough - there isn't going to be a National Strike.
From what some posters have said about the level of support in their offices I am not sure the CWU is strong enough to call an all-out strike.
History is against us - the law will be used against us, strikebreakers will be brought in again, and everything from the increase in p/t workers to Thatcher's right to buy policy makes an all-out strike a virtual non-starter.
I might agree with you but if I had a position of responsibility within the CWU hierarchy I would think very carefully before taking my members down that road.

I said sh*t or bust and I meant it. If it means wild catting, court action, union funds sequestered, fines and union officers jailed then that's what it takes - we pay them, the monies are ours. We do not pay for lip service and collusion with Royal Mail and the Government.

We either believe the fight is right or we don't - the time for indecision is long gone. Some bloke has a line on here that it is better to fight and die than live life on your knees - he's right - I think there has been enough genuflection latterly to last us a lifetime.

Brilliantly put dvbuk55,i understand clashcityrockers point but that was the same point put to me by my area rep before the ballot and we went on to get 75% yes vote.Furthermore if the union aint strong enough then Royal Mail will go on to break any agreement that comes out of the present talks anyway.

And at the same time membership levels will continue to spiral downwards until eventually RM wont have to de-recognise the CWU,it will have done the job itself.

[rockytony67]

if it's a NO then we go back to industrial action only this time there will be no calling it off on empty promises - this time it really will be sh*t or bust,

But what if the outcome is sh!t. The trade union movement isn't strong enough - there isn't going to be a National Strike.
From what some posters have said about the level of support in their offices I am not sure the CWU is strong enough to call an all-out strike.
History is against us - the law will be used against us, strikebreakers will be brought in again, and everything from the increase in p/t workers to Thatcher's right to buy policy makes an all-out strike a virtual non-starter.
I might agree with you but if I had a position of responsibility within the CWU hierarchy I would think very carefully before taking my members down that road.

I said sh*t or bust and I meant it. If it means wild catting, court action, union funds sequestered, fines and union officers jailed then that's what it takes - we pay them, the monies are ours. We do not pay for lip service and collusion with Royal Mail and the Government.

We either believe the fight is right or we don't - the time for indecision is long gone. Some bloke has a line on here that it is better to fight and die than live life on your knees - he's right - I think there has been enough genuflection latterly to last us a lifetime.

Easy to say when you retire in just over a year

[Stormproof]

Our office got called to a meeting by our rep this morning and TOLD not to talk about the negotitations as too many rumours are being spread and people are starting to panic. Did he receive an email from on high?

[Danelectro]

Easy to say when you retire in just over a year

also easy to say when you have 27 years to go working in a hong kong style sweatshop -as my office often resembles on some busy days!and thats an office that an area rep works in!

[dvbuk55]

if it's a NO then we go back to industrial action only this time there will be no calling it off on empty promises - this time it really will be sh*t or bust,

But what if the outcome is sh!t. The trade union movement isn't strong enough - there isn't going to be a National Strike.
From what some posters have said about the level of support in their offices I am not sure the CWU is strong enough to call an all-out strike.
History is against us - the law will be used against us, strikebreakers will be brought in again, and everything from the increase in p/t workers to Thatcher's right to buy policy makes an all-out strike a virtual non-starter.
I might agree with you but if I had a position of responsibility within the CWU hierarchy I would think very carefully before taking my members down that road.

I said sh*t or bust and I meant it. If it means wild catting, court action, union funds sequestered, fines and union officers jailed then that's what it takes - we pay them, the monies are ours. We do not pay for lip service and collusion with Royal Mail and the Government.

We either believe the fight is right or we don't - the time for indecision is long gone. Some bloke has a line on here that it is better to fight and die than live life on your knees - he's right - I think there has been enough genuflection latterly to last us a lifetime.

Easy to say when you retire in just over a year

That is a very true statement rocky I do retire next year come hell or high water but the sentiments are for the future - I speak as I would if I had 20 years to go and not twenty months - truthfully I try not to think of retiring too much. I consider myself very fortunate to be in the position I am, I would not like to be going into the next ten years facing the prospect of the huge pension deficit and paying the bill for the recession.

If we don't take the bull by the horns we'll be trampled underfoot - the changes for 2010 have already begun without any deal and will move on apace unless someone does something and soon.

[Martin Walsh]

First things first with hindsight what I said about wrangled was not right and I apoligise.

However for the record Dvbuk and Big Daz I do not rewrite history.

Big Daz the following motion was unamiously carried at the 2006 CWU Annual Coference at the Royal Mail letters conference on Friday morning.

COMPOSITE MOTION 165 ( IT STATED )

CONFERENCE NOTES THE DELAY IN IMPLEMENTING REVISIONS USING THE PEGASUS TOOL FOR A VARIETY OF REASON. CONFERENCE THEREFORE CALLS ON THE PEC TO NEGOTIATE A NEW AGREEMENT ON PEGASUS THAT RESOLVES ALL THE OUTSTANDING ISSUES , INCLUDING WALK SPEEDS AND CALL RATES. SUCH AN AGREEMENT SHOULD ALSO INCLUDE A COMMITMENT TO THE APPROPRIATE TRAINING FOR CWU REPS BEFORE PEGASUS CAN BE USED IN ANY OFFICE.

UNTIL SUCH AN AGREEMENT IS CONCLUDED PEGASUS SHOULD NOT BE USED AS A REVISION TOOL UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

THE POSTAL EXECUTIVE IS INSTRUCTED ACCORDINGLY.

This motion was moved by North Wales/ North West Divisonal committee
seconded by Greater Manchester Amal

Now that motion was carried by every CWU Royal Mail Branch , yet a lot of those Branch"s went on to break that motion by agreeing to geo route revisons without a national agreement and therefore made it imposible for the CWU to get a national agreement on Geo route. It took a hundreds of local disputes and a national strike before Royal Mail have now agreed to a geo route revison.

So for the record I dont re-write history, its just maybe some of you are not everywhere of all the facts. Thats not a dig , its just that I was heavily involved in some of those issues and know.


With regards to if the ballot is yes or no , well lets all wait and see if there is an agreement and if first and formost it is accepted by the PEC. We will not have long to wait now.

[Danelectro]

First things first with hindsight what I said about wrangled was not right and I apoligise.

However for the record Dvbuk and Big Daz I do not rewrite history.

Big Daz the following motion was unamiously carried at the 2006 CWU Annual Coference at the Royal Mail letters conference on Friday morning.

COMPOSITE MOTION 165 ( IT STATED )

CONFERENCE NOTES THE DELAY IN IMPLEMENTING REVISIONS USING THE PEGASUS TOOL FOR A VARIETY OF REASON. CONFERENCE THEREFORE CALLS ON THE PEC TO NEGOTIATE A NEW AGREEMENT ON PEGASUS THAT RESOLVES ALL THE OUTSTANDING ISSUES , INCLUDING WALK SPEEDS AND CALL RATES. SUCH AN AGREEMENT SHOULD ALSO INCLUDE A COMMITMENT TO THE APPROPRIATE TRAINING FOR CWU REPS BEFORE PEGASUS CAN BE USED IN ANY OFFICE.

UNTIL SUCH AN AGREEMENT IS CONCLUDED PEGASUS SHOULD NOT BE USED AS A REVISION TOOL UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

THE POSTAL EXECUTIVE IS INSTRUCTED ACCORDINGLY.

This motion was moved by North Wales/ North West Divisonal committee
seconded by Greater Manchester Amal

Now that motion was carried by every CWU Royal Mail Branch , yet a lot of those Branch"s went on to break that motion by agreeing to geo route revisons without a national agreement and therefore made it imposible for the CWU to get a national agreement on Geo route. It took a hundreds of local disputes and a national strike before Royal Mail have now agreed to a geo route revison.

So for the record I dont re-write history, its just maybe some of you are not everywhere of all the facts. Thats not a dig , its just that I was heavily involved in some of those issues and know.


With regards to if the ballot is yes or no , well lets all wait and see if there is an agreement and if first and formost it is accepted by the PEC. We will not have long to wait now.

Thanks for clearing up the pegasus/geo route issue.If that motion was passed in 2006 then why was there not a national agreement covering its use in the 2007 agreement?Our office did discuss the LTB last year when a revision using geo route was being forced on us but the Div rep and then the area rep said best just to ignore the LTB.

Some of us in the office did suggest like some offices had been doing on the west coast of Scotland and striking for the last two hours on a saturday but we were again advised by the above that they didnt see the point.So that along with some members not wanting to lose seniority through EA led to an acceptance of the new duties.

[clashcityrocker]

With regards to if the ballot is yes or no , well lets all wait and see if there is an agreement and if first and formost it is accepted by the PEC. We will not have long to wait now.

Famous last words?

[dvbuk55]

This is taken from an LTB dated 24 January 2008 listing enablers etc in dealing with RM for local negotiators - dingo states an LTB from 2006 - is it any wonder that we are in the position we are - the 2007/9 agreement is clearly written with Royal Mail in mind and if you read even some of it then you can understand the position Royal Mail take on implementing change. That agreement was a minefield for Reps and it is no wonder that things have gone pear shaped.


The Pay & Modernisation Agreement gives local representatives the right to
negotiate and shape how flexibility is introduced by agreement at local level. There
is no need for any local representatives to feel isolated if problems arise. The union
has a structure of support through its Area Reps, Branches and Divisional
Representatives. This can be utilised at any stage to seek advice or, if necessary,
register formal disagreement. The Union fought hard to secure the opportunity to
influence change through local negotiations and it is important that we do not allow
Royal Mail to revert to previous behaviours. We want our representatives to take a
proactive approach and put forward their own proposals and ideas rather than just
react to Royal Mail’s position.

You see Dingo it's no good dragging up an ancient LTB when there has been such copious documentation following the 2007/9 agreement. Unlike some, local Reps also work and are drawn into meetings and agreements without having the time to digest the changes. Some Reps may not even have seen the LTB from 2006 and would think that the relevant information on change was contained in the 2007/9 agreement, and some offices don't have Reps.

The much vaunted structure of support is truly AWOL when any assistance is required - and don't just take my word for it, ask around!

[Cut Off King]

1 - How soon is soon?
2 - Are they meeting over the weekend ?
3 - If we get an agreement, how soon will we get firm details of what the deal contains?
4 - When do the PEC next meet?
5 - What asurances do we have that RM will stick to the deal and not find loop-holes to wriggle out of putting hours BACK into offices?
6 - I have a euro millions lottery ticket for tonight, will I win anything? or will I have to return to work tomorrow!