National Negotiations – Extended into next week,and the next

[The truth!]

Dvbuk everyone knew that employment law means that if you dont use a ballot in 3 months then its dead. So its hardly the truth coming out is it.

Now the issues of pensions is totally different from the last time. That was to do with the final salary.

This time the pension defcit has not been revealed as yet but everyone expects it to be 10 Billion plus. Once this is announced the Pension Trustees under the law must demand what measures Royal Mail will introduce to cover the defcit by June. We know Brydon wants to close the scheme for all existing members meaning apart from people recieving money , all contributions cease.

What is equally clear is that on one hand we are negotating with the employer over increases in terms and conditions when in reality whatever we agree that the empoyer must pay in the benefits package might not be there once the pension defcit is then announced. Pensions is the elephant in the rooom.

If the Government stepped in and took on the pensions defcit and the assets then Royal Mail will have instantly more money to be used including in the benefits package.

Thats why pensions is a big issue.

[wranglered]

so if I am reading you right....any improvement in terms and conditions are out of the question because of the pension deficit...so rather than decoupling the pensions, the negotiators have now recoupled it and will use it as an excuse for the inevitable worsening of terms and conditions that you call "goodies"????

or am I just being a bit thick?

[The truth!]

wrangled yes there will be benefits in the deal otherwise it would not be agreed by our negoatiators let alone the members.

The problem with everything is all Royal Mail"s finances are reviewed in the talks to maximise the beneifits package. Royal Mail actual finances show a pension defcit of 3.5 billion which all the calculations are worked on.

If the new pension defcits is £10 Billion then in theory the company is bankrupt as it only has a turn over of 7billion per year. The pension trustees will demand from Royal Mail what measures they are going to take to ensure that their is an assured plan to tackle the defcit.

So you see the problem we have all got.

[spilie]

so as soon as the 3 months is up and we need to re-ballot, there is an agreement mmmm, and as you have said truth not much point in striking now so lets just deal with it.oh by the way are there any changes to your terms and conditions truth.

[The truth!]

so as soon as the 3 months is up and we need to re-ballot, there is an agreement mmmm, and as you have said truth not much point in striking now so lets just deal with it.oh by the way are there any changes to your terms and conditions truth.

Spile I will be effected by any changes as well. I have lost 18% on my lump sum and appoxmately 20% on my pension by the changes.

The law on empoyment laws allows an employer after two months of non use of a ballot to challenge legally the ballot after 3 its covered by case law.

[fishtank]

So now we are talking about pensions and the agreement again.

What caused the pension deficit?
The CWU said this deficit was mostly attributable to a pension contribution holiday by the company for 13 years between 1990 and 2003, which it claimed was driven by legislation forcing companies to use surplus assets above a 105% funding level to either improve benefits or take a contribution holiday.

So lets blame the goverment well not everyone agrees

Why is the Royal Mail pension deficit so large?
Independent pensions consultant John Ralfe said Royal Mail has "gambled on equities and lost". According to Mr Ralfe, Royal Mail has traditionally held up to 80pc worth of equities in its asset allocation, leaving it highly vulnerable to market fluctuations over the years.

One thing we all agree is that WE the members were not responsible for it but it looks like we may pay for it in many ways from poorer pensions to poorer terms and conditions.
But i will not be pressured into accepting this agreement using pensions as the lever.

[dvbuk55]

Well I'm no newbie dingo and I was under the impression we could still activate the ballot, so as far as I am concerned I have been led to believe we still had that option until we have reached the stage when we couldn't. So you see not everyone knew - in fact I'll bet there was more members who didn't know!!!!

In the last agreement when the vote was required to accept the deal, the union trumpeted that it had managed to decouple the pension from the agreement so that we would agree to it - this time it is apparently imperative that the pension IS part of the deal in order for us to agree to it. The pension deficit has not been caused by the membership, DSA et al is not the fault of the membership so how is it that we are going to be paying a heavy price for the "goodies". TBH some of us have already paid the price and received no goodies. This deal had better cover EVERYONE, no side deals, no special arrangements - one for all and all for one - or else!

It would be much more honest to say the union is floundering that we are going to have to accept whatever Royal Mail sling at us and we will be doing it with local negotiations YET AGAIN. It would seem that the union are quite happy to accept the coin but not the responsibility

[Big Daz]

Well I'm no newbie dingo and I was under the impression we could still activate the ballot, so as far as I am concerned I have been led to believe we still had that option until we have reached the stage when we couldn't. So you see not everyone knew - in fact I'll bet there was more members who didn't know!!!!

Well said, Im of the exact same view point as you dvbuk55.

[Big Daz]

Government policy is not to cherry pick the Postal Services Bill, there is no record of them saying that is no longer the case.

Billy and co should not get carried away just because Labour conference voted for pension deficit to be taken care of.

Lets not forget the FULL terms of Emergency motion 6 had to be fullfilled in order to avoid balloting the membership on if they wished to fund Labour at the general election.

I do not want to see any half measures on the pension being accepted by the CWU just to retain the link with Labour.

The whole idea of extending the deficit repayment period rather than the defict being lifted away all together is not acceptable to me.

[fishtank]

the truth wrote
"Dvbuk everyone knew that employment law means that if you dont use a ballot in 3 months then its dead."

The laws on suspension and resumption of industrial action after negotiation periods are not required reading for an OPG.
But i would imagine a senior union official who communicated with this site on an almost daily basis would know.
Maybe it slipped his mind.

[kh]

who said theres a agreement just on

[rockytony67]

Dvbuk everyone knew that employment law means that if you dont use a ballot in 3 months then its dead. So its hardly the truth coming out is it.

Now the issues of pensions is totally different from the last time. That was to do with the final salary.

Truth can you remind us what we as a union did, when they took away our final salary scheme, I like many people in the job have lost thousands of pounds off my pension, and it seems to me that we have just let them get away with it, can you give me any ideas how the battle to get our final salary scheme back goes, or is that a battle that was lost but HQ forget to tell the troops

[phantomshare]

LTB No. 982/09 Ref: Date: 6th November 2009

Royal Mail has also accepted that the national ballot and all local ballots remain enacted.

Does this still apply?

[dvbuk55]

LTB No. 982/09 Ref: Date: 6th November 2009

Royal Mail has also accepted that the national ballot and all local ballots remain enacted.

Does this still apply?

Well if there is a 3 month deadline and the 6th is the enactment date then we should have a week left shouldn't we? So lets just see if they can spin it out for another week.

[fishtank]

LTB No. 982/09 Ref: Date: 6th November 2009

Royal Mail has also accepted that the national ballot and all local ballots remain enacted.

Does this still apply?

Well if there is a 3 month deadline and the 6th is the enactment date then we should have a week left shouldn't we? So lets just see if they can spin it out for another week.

Unfortunately dvb it's 3 months since the last day of industrial action that counts and since the IA scheduled for the 6th/9th of november was called off at the 11th hour that ship has already sailed.