Seniority and how it works

[GHOSTman]

The question of full and part time duties with regards to seniority is soon going to be a very dicey issue.

When park and loop was introduced 15 months ago people were moved from full time town rounds to man the park and loop vehicles because it was suggested that only a full time position would suit the duty structure. The delivery is 4.15 plus 15 each way, prepare deliveries, sort out large packets for the two deliveries and load the vehicle et seq, so it was obviously out of the question for 5 and 6 hour duty spans - except as staff were sacked and left part timers now regularly fill the vacancy and book overtime.

Now that deliveries are pretty much all going to be park and loop because anything outside a mile from the DO will be that and the delivery span may be increased for town as well what price a part time duty? Our office is already 60%FT and 40%PT and that ratio, at least in theory, will not sustain park and loop.

I agree. It's already causing problems and arguments in our office since we were told the details of soon to be introduced park and look with a full office re-sign. It's turned full timers against part timers and also drivers against non drivers. I've already asked my union rep and DOM how the re-sign will work...and they both said they were still trying to decide the details. surely there are set rules? or is it local agreements again?

[dvbuk55]

The question of full and part time duties with regards to seniority is soon going to be a very dicey issue.

When park and loop was introduced 15 months ago people were moved from full time town rounds to man the park and loop vehicles because it was suggested that only a full time position would suit the duty structure. The delivery is 4.15 plus 15 each way, prepare deliveries, sort out large packets for the two deliveries and load the vehicle et seq, so it was obviously out of the question for 5 and 6 hour duty spans - except as staff were sacked and left part timers now regularly fill the vacancy and book overtime.

Now that deliveries are pretty much all going to be park and loop because anything outside a mile from the DO will be that and the delivery span may be increased for town as well what price a part time duty? Our office is already 60%FT and 40%PT and that ratio, at least in theory, will not sustain park and loop.

I agree. It's already causing problems and arguments in our office since we were told the details of soon to be introduced park and look with a full office re-sign. It's turned full timers against part timers and also drivers against non drivers. I've already asked my union rep and DOM how the re-sign will work...and they both said they were still trying to decide the details. surely there are set rules? or is it local agreements again?

Well in our case it was pretty much no agreement at all with the promise of a resign after 10 weeks - that was 15 months ago and yes it was by local agreement albeit without agreement. The union was asked for advice and we were told to go ahead - then 6 months later the LTB went out for no cooperation .................... and I guess there is going to be more of the same.

[fishtank]

The union's position on seniority.

Seniority has existed in the Post Office for over 150 years. It does not discriminate against anyone on the basis of colour, sex, creed, or indeed age as the date you joined and the length of your service determines the duty you do. Moreover, it rewards loyalty to the company. Seniority is not about picking easy jobs, as the Union believes in a fair and manageable workload. Instead it is the fairest and most transparent way of selecting duties.

[hubbahubba]

The union's position on seniority.

Seniority has existed in the Post Office for over 150 years. It does not discriminate against anyone on the basis of colour, sex, creed, or indeed age as the date you joined and the length of your service determines the duty you do. Moreover, it rewards loyalty to the company. Seniority is not about picking easy jobs, as the Union believes in a fair and manageable workload. Instead it is the fairest and most transparent way of selecting duties.

what about "ringfenced" duties where you need certain skills?

[Tman]

what about "ringfenced" duties where you need certain skills?

No problem. Old Bert at age 63 goes on the nights mech for the first time to bump up his pension "because he can", but both the CWU and MCM seem happy that some younger/keener/more interested/more able member of staff gets bumped back to bag tipping.

Yep, that's seniority, and only in RM would it be considered acceptable...

[fishtank]

Yep, that's seniority, and only in RM would it be considered acceptable...

No Tman it's still considered acceptable in the majority of workplaces including the legal profession.

[fishtank]

Option 1 – ‘Random Selection’
STAGE 3: If more people still meet the criteria
than there are vacancies available the manager
will select the names randomly (e.g. by placing in
a hat and the first name drawn is selected).

Option 2 – ‘Best Fit’
STAGE 3: If more people still meet the criteria
than there are vacancies available the manager will
select, at their discretion, on the basis of “best fit”
and/or the development needs of the individual.

Option 3 – ‘Full Assessment’
STAGE 3: Each and every duty or role will have
a full person specification. If more people still
meet the criteria than there are vacancies
available the manager will select by undertaking a
full assessment of each person’s capability
against the person specification.

Which of these "options would YOU prefer as an alternative,i know which one your manager would prefer but i would stick to seniority.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

what about "ringfenced" duties where you need certain skills?

No problem. Old Bert at age 63 goes on the nights mech for the first time to bump up his pension "because he can", but both the CWU and MCM seem happy that some younger/keener/more interested/more able member of staff gets bumped back to bag tipping.

Yep, that's seniority, and only in RM would it be considered acceptable...

Don't know about MCs but the situation would not arise in a DO. If a postie has a skill for which they get paid extra, and unless his duty is removed in a revision he would not be bumped from his duty for a postie who does not have the training just so he can bump his pension.

In a repick situation all the staff with the relevant skills will get first choice, in order of seniority. Those without the skill do not get chance to pick it until all posties who do have had the chance to choose their preference. If all positions are taken and those with the skill can't select a duty then the extra allowances they receive are protected under various agreements.

Therefore in a DO the only way Old Bert can bump Joe Young is if they have the same skills, and there is a repick and he has more seniority than him. If any of single one of those 3 points are missing Bert cannot bump Joe. It may be different in a MC but it shouldn't be.

[dvbuk55]

what about "ringfenced" duties where you need certain skills?

No problem. Old Bert at age 63 goes on the nights mech for the first time to bump up his pension "because he can", but both the CWU and MCM seem happy that some younger/keener/more interested/more able member of staff gets bumped back to bag tipping.

Yep, that's seniority, and only in RM would it be considered acceptable...

Don't despair tman, there is no shame in bag tipping - and when you are 63 you too will be able to go on nights to bump your pension - unless of course they have a machine which will supercede the human hand by then.

[Tman]

No Tman it's still considered acceptable in the majority of workplaces including the legal profession.

I suppose it depends on what aspect of the legal profession you're referring to.
For your statement to be true all those affected by it would have to be considered to be of the same skill level, attitude and calibre, and I find that hard to believe.
Some are paid to take on governments, courts and hearings, and others do no more than wills and local conveyancing.
"Advancement by results" as the old cliche goes, would be more likely.

[Tman]

Which of these "options would YOU prefer as an alternative,i know which one your manager would prefer but i would stick to seniority.

You know my manager?
I would prefer option 3, as that's the way it's always been for me. I would also prefer option 3 for the MC staff HubbaBubba was referring to. Some can do it, some can't.

I wasn't saying anything about DO staff, but replying to H-B's comment on MC repicks.

[hubbahubba]

what about "ringfenced" duties where you need certain skills?

No problem. Old Bert at age 63 goes on the nights mech for the first time to bump up his pension "because he can", but both the CWU and MCM seem happy that some younger/keener/more interested/more able member of staff gets bumped back to bag tipping.

Yep, that's seniority, and only in RM would it be considered acceptable...

err,no not here...A ringfenced duty is exempt from any resign,so that exactly that type of thing can't happen(ie some useless old sod who is seeing out his time DOSENT sign to the mech,and everyone else has to carry em!Would YOU be happy doing your share of work,and half theirs?i doubt it....

[Tman]

err,no not here...A ringfenced duty is exempt from any resign,so that exactly that type of thing can't happen(ie some useless old sod who is seeing out his time DOSENT sign to the mech,and everyone else has to carry em!

You're lucky, we have no ring-fenced duties in our MC, and those "useless old sods" always seem to end up in duties where they can cause most grief, normally through total technical ineptitude.
{"Ahyeahbut, he's been here for years and has got a high seniority, so it's his right to nause things up... "}

Why they can't just stick to pushing ALTs around I have no idea...

[hubbahubba]

err,no not here...A ringfenced duty is exempt from any resign,so that exactly that type of thing can't happen(ie some useless old sod who is seeing out his time DOSENT sign to the mech,and everyone else has to carry em!

You're lucky, we have no ring-fenced duties in our MC, and those "useless old sods" always seem to end up in duties where they can cause most grief, normally through total technical ineptitude.
{"Ahyeahbut, he's been here for years and has got a high seniority, so it's his right to nause things up... "}

Why they can't just stick to pushing ALTs around I have no idea...

Tbh its got nothing to do with peoples age,there are plenty of useless feckers of ALL ages at my MC.

[Tman]

Tbh its got nothing to do with peoples age,there are plenty of useless feckers of ALL ages at my MC.

True enough, but at least the younger ones can't get into these positions via seniority.