National Negotiations – Extended into next week,and the next

[spilie]

to answer your question other areas are able to vote when RM and the CWU want thier agreement passed, make no mistake, everything has been agreed people like the truth are only fishing to the reaction they are going to get when they announce the deal, the delays are deliberate the more wild speculation the easier it is to pass the changes they are proposing, so lets get ready for a massive no, because as the truth says we decide

To take what The Truth said and put it more simply, was the hard cash going into your weekly wage along with the lump sums suitable reward for the changes that went with that money?

Yes or No

No, I said it at the time that it wasn't going to be worth it and I think I've been proved correct, I personally don't know how the CWU leadership can possible hope to encourage us to vote for a new agreement that will be worse than the last one (loss of D2D payments, more PT workers, loss of paid meal breaks etc.). A major benefit from RMC is that we can get more information than before and we can pass it on to those who don't come on here, this week when I told some of the people in my office the rumour (very likely to be true) of stopping the D2D payments they where shocked and nervous at the potential loss of money and are more likely to vote against any agreement that gives up any benefits.

I understand this is mainly a delivery forum,but how can there be a vote put to ALL RM workers when the rumoured changes seems to be about mainly making fundemental change to delivery (end of D2D payments,longer walks etc)?As a MC worker how can i be expected to vote on issues that hardly,if at all,affect me?I obviously know the rumours of the attempted closure of up to half the national MC'S as well,and realise that once RM are done with the slash and burn of delivery,that MC and logistics will be next on their list,but there seems to be very little info about the other areas of the business,such as processing?Anyone heard any whispers as to these areas?Back to my opening point,how can one area of RM be expected to vote on something which seems to be nothing to do with their own job,but will have major impact on someone else??

[NWpostie]

NO

That's NO to was it worth it!
Hopefully members won't be so shortsighted this time and take the 30 pieces of silver.
Have a feeling that we will get a lump sum offer of circa £1500 to cease DtD payments and the "agreement" will be be voted in.

£1,500 equates to roughly (assuming 3 bundles per week) 50 weeks of D2D so after 11 months we start to lose out. if that is explained to the rank ad file, I will predict they will vote NO.

[Big Daz]

Since when did we move away from a weekly supplement to a one off lump sum as part of the new agreement if there is one?

The impression given to this site by the Truth is that door to doors are a sticking point. Therefore wait and see what the final proposal is and if there is one does it have CWU blessing? It has been suggested by the truth that the overall package will put out to vote regardless and if nesscary it will come with a recomendation to vote no.

[labbloke]

Any payment for the d2d has to be added to our salary, that way as least people benefit when it comes to A/L, sickness and future pension payments.

A one off lump sum would be a disaster. and yes I agree £1500 is far too small to be accepted.

[dvbuk55]

Since when did we move away from a weekly supplement to a one off lump sum as part of the new agreement if there is one?

The impression given to this site by the Truth is that door to doors are a sticking point. Therefore wait and see what the final proposal is and if there is one does it have CWU blessing? It has been suggested by the truth that the overall package will put out to vote regardless and if nesscary it will come with a recomendation to vote no.

A recommendation to vote NO - now that would be a surprise.

[Edward Hunter]

An acceptable deal on D2Ds for me would be, considering we are opening the door to maybe 5 a week and we are due a rate increase anyway ,would be a one off lump of £1500 and then a weekly supplement (paid every week btw) of £20. Of course all D2Ds would be absorbed into workload as now. What about you?

[Ernie Shoe]

Since when did we move away from a weekly supplement to a one off lump sum as part of the new agreement if there is one?

The impression given to this site by the Truth is that door to doors are a sticking point. Therefore wait and see what the final proposal is and if there is one does it have CWU blessing? It has been suggested by the truth that the overall package will put out to vote regardless and if nesscary it will come with a recomendation to vote no.

Big Daz,
I'm speculating. What's wrong with that??
I believe a financial carrot will be dangled. Simple as that.

[Cut Off King]

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How much to lose D2D payments

Postby Cut Off King » Today, 14:50
Just add up what we earn from D2D's

3 Items X 1.67p = 5.01p
5.01p X 450 calls ( average walk ) = £22.55 per week
42 weeks X £22.55 = £947.10 ( allowing for holiday weeks / xmas / sick leave )

£950 per year

Multiply that by how many years you,ve left to serve...

5 years = £4750
10 years = £9500
15 years = £14,250
20 years = £19,000
25 years = £23,750
30 years = £28,500

------------------------

Sorry forgot to add that if RM increase the number of D2D items to say 6 per week then you would have to Double these figures......Scary isn't it, can you aford to lose that much money ?

So how much of a sweetner £££ would you sell out D2D payments for ?

[Ernie Shoe]

Personally I will vote NO to any deal with one off payments.
Any money needs to be on basic pay. I don't want supplements either.
I just feel it will be a lump sum offer that a majority will vote for.
Hopefully I'm wrong and most members have learnt from 2007!

[The truth!]

Lots of speculation on what people believe will be in the agreement and of course there are some who have without the agreement even being reached making their minds up it will be a sell out. What a surprise !!

Lets try and answer some of the stuff aimed at me in this thread !!

According to some of you everything is ok now , as you dont want to move to a longer finish , you dont want to include door to door into work load and you dont want to remove weight of the shoulder via car derived vans.

Yet the same posters have been arguing for the last 2 years that Royal Mail were making walks longer by introducing geo route and out door absorbtion. In turn many have complained that full time duties were being replaced by part time duties. Many complain that further management efficiencies were making the job impossible. Plus a number were quoting that management were introducing later starts.

Well if there is no deal do you really think that the above wont intensify once management change the workplan so you have less work in your office due to the fact that walk sequencing machines will be doing that work from 0600 or later depending where your office is in the program.

No lets cut the crap about car derived vans , and the romantic idea everyone currently rides their bike on delivery , less than 25% do ride a bike, but more than 45% use their own car on delivery.

So car derived vans being introduced will stop that , Royal Mail have already produced guidelines in the last two weeks sent to managers ensuring as soon as car derived vans are introduced in your office then private cars on delivery must cease. Yes there are huge questions whether they will work everywhere as the evidence suggests they work in some places and not in others but hey that becomes Royal Mails problem not ours if they introduce them and they dont work everywhere.

No longer spans , well lets examine this some people perform 3.5 hours with replenishment time built into that 3.5 hours so in reality your walk does not take 3.5 hours first to last point of delivery. If you then decided to have first to last point of delivery and then built into that walk replenishment time then that walk would be probably over 4 hours which then if you add travelling time , meal relief , perhaps the shorter working week then add the prep which you will need for door to door then even with the reduction which will come with walk sequencing then we may still maximise full time jobs.

Now with Door to Door , do you know our greatest rival on door to door is tnt , why are TNT our rivals because the more they get then they can then start getting some of our mail sort products which could mean they delivery in certain towns or post codes on one or two days per week. The other con is that everyone does door to door they dont . some offices have door to door barons who do a chunk of them for the whole office , others cant cope and casuals do them , drivers dont in the main do them nor do some RDCs. The other con is that everyone does 3 every week , the average is 2.3 and not everyone will suddenly see an increase as we have to win that work off other companies.

Like I said before no other trade union would turn down extra work which could protect jobs. Some of the same indivuduals who criticise this concept on door to door argue against Saturday being removed from the USO. Yet with walk sequencing we need as much work into workload to maximise a full time job as possible. Now the price for Door to Door is a valued arguement , but lets forget about lump sums its has got to be a 52 week supplement based on the average an office has delivered over an agreed period of time and of course a debate on who recieves that in an office. The union should also trap a share of any increase in the capture of more of the door to door market.

Now lets have a debate. Tell me how you would solve the problems the union is faced within the talks.

You can all moan but what is your alternative. Do you really think that if the union walked away from the current talks you would see no change and all live happily ever after ??

[Cut Off King]

Hit a raw nerve there I think........

[fishtank]

the truth wrote
"perhaps the shorter working week"

Perhaps. Don't tell me this has joined D2D and later saturdays on the sticking point list.

the truth wrote
"they work in some places and not in others but hey that becomes Royal Mails problem not ours if they introduce them and they dont work everywhere."

But hey no it doesn't. It becomes our problem because it is made to work even if it doesn't usually resulting in a bit of pressure,some "performance standard" quote and a bit of B&H thrown in for good measure.

[dvbuk55]

Hit a raw nerve there I think........

Well it sounds like the same old same old to me:

Longer deliveries
More D2D
Longer Saturday working
Park and Loop (Car derived Vans is new speak designed to fool those who haven't experienced it yet)
HCTs
Get rid of cycles
Absorption for sickness and holidays
Lapsing for light traffic should that ever occur (I might add that it was summer lapsing originally which allowed for more holidays)

Which just about sums up all that Royal Mail want, and hey if that's what they are asking for and it doesn't work there'll be enough B&H to make it work.

Well that's deliveries sorted dingo, now what exactly is anyone else doing to make the company profitable?, or are you not privy to that?

There seems to be a lot of "unofficial" leaks as to what the end agreement is going to look like in principle BUT there is never any suggestion as to what we are going to get for it either in fact or principle. Still I am sure that we are going to get to see the gruesome details soon enough.

[fishtank]

Hit a raw nerve there I think........

Well it sounds like the same old same old to me:

Longer deliveries
More D2D
Longer Saturday working
Park and Loop (Car derived Vans is new speak designed to fool those who haven't experienced it yet)
HCTs
Get rid of cycles
Absorption for sickness and holidays
Lapsing for light traffic should that ever occur (I might add that it was summer lapsing originally which allowed for more holidays)

Which just about sums up all that Royal Mail want, and hey if that's what they are asking for and it doesn't work there'll be enough B&H to make it work.

Well that's deliveries sorted dingo, now what exactly is anyone else doing to make the company profitable?, or are you not privy to that?

There seems to be a lot of "unofficial" leaks as to what the end agreement is going to look like in principle BUT there is never any suggestion as to what we are going to get for it either in fact or principle. Still I am sure that we are going to get to see the gruesome details soon enough.

Your not suggesting someone would drip feed us the bad news and save all the goodies til last dvb.

[Eric]

Instead of agreeing to an increased workload through more D2Ds why is the union not pressing for full payment for the work we already do ie DSA. The extra money that can be made up through D2Ds is a drop in the ocean compared to what we lose through DSA. Why is the union not making DSA an issue?