Agreement to extend national talks

[dvbuk55]

The vote that will count will be whether we accept any new agreement, if the deal is not acceptable it will be no, regardless of any recommendation - in this respect we ARE the union and should exercise caution when listening to those who stand to gain more by a YES vote than the membership. When things go wrong those same people who recommend these agreements are only too quick to point out that the membership voted for it.

If we dont vote for it what will happen?
more executive action by RM?
more industrial action by CWU?

Maybe they will keep extending the existing talks so that everyone gets fed up waiting and the interim sell out agreement will hold the field.

That's when the real organising by branch should kick in - however you sometimes have to question if there is any mettle at that level and that there is an underlying self preservation of their position. The support for action was overwhelming and the support for an agreement that fulfils our aspirations and not others should be highlighted at unit level to engender the same support. There is other action which can be taken and come the New Year and further inroads by RM for instituting change without agreement, which is already happening, there may well be calls for local ballots again.

There is a disturbing whisper that a no strike clause will be a part of the new agreement and that alone would certainly mean a NO from me - that would virtually mean that whatever changes in the future to pay and conditions would be indisputable and that there would be no need for RM to negotiate at all - ever!

[TrueBlueTerrier]

I am praying that there is not a "No strike clause" in the agreement because if there was it would, if not kill off the CWU, would certainly put it in its death bed and would lead to even more strife and Industrial unrest for Royal Mail.

If there is a no strike agreement then any units being treated unfairly would have no option other to go unofficial and the CWU would have a very hard time trying to control it, they would be fighting fires all over the country.

For Royal Mail it would look good short term, as it would for the Labour Party, but in the Long Term can anyone really see Royal Mail sticking to their side and keep to any of the concessions agreed by HQ to convince us it was a good move to accept a No strike deal. Not me. This would of course weaken any remnants of trust there is left between Posties and Senior Management.

IMO It would be a further step backward in Industrial Relations and would only enhance the chances of the public backing full privatisation because of the unofficial strikes that RM Seniors Managers would engineer.

I am a cynic aren't I.

[norbert]

I am praying that there is not a "No strike clause" in the agreement because if there was it would, if not kill off the CWU, would certainly put it in its death bed and would lead to even more strife and Industrial unrest for Royal Mail.

If there is a no strike agreement then any units being treated unfairly would have no option other to go unofficial and the CWU would have a very hard time trying to control it, they would be fighting fires all over the country.

For Royal Mail it would look good short term, as it would for the Labour Party, but in the Long Term can anyone really see Royal Mail sticking to their side and keep to any of the concessions agreed by HQ to convince us it was a good move to accept a No strike deal. Not me. This would of course weaken any remnants of trust there is left between Posties and Senior Management.

IMO It would be a further step backward in Industrial Relations and would only enhance the chances of the public backing full privatisation because of the unofficial strikes that RM Seniors Managers would engineer.

I am a cynic aren't I.

it's not the first time that it's happened - as for being cynical , a cynic would ideally like to be proved wrong , but until ................. just a horrible way of getting to the truth , I'd rather have it , bit glass half empty but .......

[sareknees]

The union has been a DISGRACE in agreeing to see it through Christmas.

Posties with YEARS service still getting fkd aboot by EA - they signed for walks remember.. How on Gods earth were walk holders not put back on there duties is behond me.

I for one will be out this "union" if they agree to another slave deal and get seriously looking for a better job.

Would like to see Hayes + Ward slugg it oot in all weathers for hours day after day instead of in there cosy office - that would soon register to them how the rank + file feel ! :lfo :cfo :mfo

[Martin Walsh]

Look it does get tiresome but Billy did walk the streets in Liverpool as a postman and when there were 3 deliveries per day and when there was a christmas day delivery . Dave joined as a cadet ( mocker as it was known )and walked the streets of Tooting as a postie. So they both know the job inside out. However maybe they are aware of a little more information of the way the Royal Mail are moving in terms of policy , comercially and workplan than most on here and therefore have to negotiate against that background rather than as some on here believe just ignore what Royal Mail are spending millions of pounds on !

Now there will not be a no strike deal fact ! This would be unacceptable to everyone so will not be in any deal. However there will be a new industrial relations agreement which will put in measures to avoid both executive action and industrial action which will be advantagious to us all as execuitve action being taken is the biggest cause of stike action and making it harder for Royal Mail to introduce their plans without agreement can only be of benefit to us all.

In any case new employment legislation due later this year will insist that acas becomes involved prior to national or local disputes. Any one who has been involved with acas and i have twice will know that it assists matters and makes it impossible for Royal Mail to just say no without explaining why and giving their rationale.

Now Dvbuk is right ( see I agree with you ) the members will have the final say and of course Branches will make their own recommendation to the members. However their will be no chance of defeating any agreement unless you have a major campaign with the support of at least 4 divisions experience shows this as the only two agreements voted out were the way forward and the attendance procedure both of which came in with minor changes 2nd time round.

[Thorby Bislam]

I am a cynic aren't I.

If you're a cynic, then so am I.

[Ahebban]

I would question the need for any major campaign against an agreement that does not meet the criteria set out prior to national action. The level of distrust in RM is deep, personal and clearly evident from ordinary members and will not be easily swept aside, as it has been those members that have felt the brunt of RM attacks. They will not be so easily swayed by spin or the offer of 'carrots' as happened with the 2007-2009 Agreement.

CWU HQ was well aware of the abuses that RM employed in breach of the 2007-2009 Agreement (in order to push its own agenda) well ahead of the need to call for national action. It was left to the grass-root members to 'walk the walk' and begin the fight back when HQ were merely 'talking the talk'.

I think all CWU members, particularly posties, are well aware of the challenges that they are going to confront once a new agreement is put to members for ballot. The CWU negotiators have had months to prepare for these talks, and I hope that the delay in coming to an agreement is because the CWU is taking a hard line, and looking to provide real reward to balance the undoubted major change to our job.

Make no mistake, HQ, you are going to have to earn the respect and the vote of every postie, and not expect an unequivocal and unconditional 'yes' vote merely because it has the support of senior members of the CWU.

[dvbuk55]

Both Billy and Dave walked the street so they know the job inside out? - they knew the job inside out 30 years ago and that is a world far removed than todays deliveries - it's 6 years since I did a delivery and it is far removed from then.

You go on to say:

"Now there will not be a no strike deal fact ! This would be unacceptable to everyone so will not be in any deal. However there will be a new industrial relations agreement which will put in measures to avoid both executive action and industrial action which will be advantagious to us all as execuitve action being taken is the biggest cause of stike action and making it harder for Royal Mail to introduce their plans without agreement can only be of benefit to us all."

This looks like a no strike deal to me because we will be unable to strike but what is to prevent Royal Mail implementing change as they have been doing and continue to do so? As for legislation coming in soon - why jump the gun? The legislation may or may not be coming, there will certainly be a change of Government and wouldn't it just suit privatisation to have a workforce unable to defend itself by strike action? As I recall opening the market ahead of time has caused us untold problems, so lets not be too premature on non existent legislation.

If Billy and Dave have more information on what Royal Mails plans are, the commercial background et al, then let us know. We went on strike to prevent Royal Mail carrying out unwanted and unnecessary change not to pander to it. The idea of the agreement is improve the memberships working conditions and rewards in a fair way not in a way that gives Royal Mail a free hand.

As we agree the proof of the pudding is in the voting but you seem to think that whatever the agreement is the membership will vote for it - and I think that once bitten twice shy.

[Big Daz]

dvbuk55

If the voting outcome of this agreement is anything like previous then it may well get voted in on a minority of ballot papers despatched returning a yes vote.

I would suggest a high threshold in terms of turn out and yes votes for this agreement and all future agreements for all CWU members in any buissness to come in to force with the consent of the membership.

[dvbuk55]

dvbuk55

If the voting outcome of this agreement is anything like previous then it may well get voted in on a minority of ballot papers despatched returning a yes vote.

I would suggest a high threshold in terms of turn out and yes votes for this agreement and all future agreements for all CWU members in any buissness to come in to force with the consent of the membership.

In normal circumstances I would probably agree with you, but I am convinced that this time there is a greater awareness of what is at stake on this vote by the membership and that there will be a question of whether this agreement can work in practice; as opposed to the theoretical 2007/9 agreement which has proved to be divisive, disruptive and wide enough to drive a ten ton truck through.

This site too has proved to be a valuable tool in making people aware of the current circumstances and some of the posters actually set people thinking that there is a move afoot to try to bamboozle them into a yes vote by speculating that THIS is the only option because of x,y or z. Which highlights the fact that there is little consideration in putting their case forward but rather trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

[smokerjim]

dvbuk55

If the voting outcome of this agreement is anything like previous then it may well get voted in on a minority of ballot papers despatched returning a yes vote.

I would suggest a high threshold in terms of turn out and yes votes for this agreement and all future agreements for all CWU members in any buissness to come in to force with the consent of the membership.

In normal circumstances I would probably agree with you, but I am convinced that this time there is a greater awareness of what is at stake on this vote by the membership and that there will be a question of whether this agreement can work in practice; as opposed to the theoretical 2007/9 agreement which has proved to be divisive, disruptive and wide enough to drive a ten ton truck through.

This site too has proved to be a valuable tool in making people aware of the current circumstances and some of the posters actually set people thinking that there is a move afoot to try to bamboozle them into a yes vote by speculating that THIS is the only option because of x,y or z. Which highlights the fact that there is little consideration in putting their case forward but rather trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Not picking on you DVB, just you're the latest to suggest that the membership will be too aware of what could happen to vote in a bad agreement again, but have a look at the members page. According to that, there are 10610 registered members of this site, but if you look at the first few pages ( it's all done chronologically from earlest to latest ), over 4 pages I counted 20 odd with three figure post counts.....20 members with lots of questions, answers & opinions about their job from August '06 to March '07 - and that includes POSTMAN, Teebs and Johnny P.....I'd much rather assume most people don't pay attention to what RM say or do to others, and that I have to do what I can to inform them, rather than assume that cos I know RM are a bunch of cnuts & I will vote against anything not to my expectations, so will everyone else

Everyone needs to expect the worst - prefect preparation, prevents piss poor performance

[dvbuk55]

Not everyone posts smoker and there is a lot of people who don't come on here but who are made aware of the content of the tit bits that are fed through this forum. There is a feeling in DOs that all is not right with the world and in some respects they are ready for a fight again.

I never made Prefect only milk monitor

[fishtank]

Look it does get tiresome but Billy did walk the streets in Liverpool as a postman and when there were 3 deliveries per day and when there was a christmas day delivery . Dave joined as a cadet ( mocker as it was known )and walked the streets of Tooting as a postie. So they both know the job inside out. However maybe they are aware of a little more information of the way the Royal Mail are moving in terms of policy , comercially and workplan than most on here and therefore have to negotiate against that background rather than as some on here believe just ignore what Royal Mail are spending millions of pounds on !

Now there will not be a no strike deal fact ! This would be unacceptable to everyone so will not be in any deal. However there will be a new industrial relations agreement which will put in measures to avoid both executive action and industrial action which will be advantagious to us all as execuitve action being taken is the biggest cause of stike action and making it harder for Royal Mail to introduce their plans without agreement can only be of benefit to us all.

In any case new employment legislation due later this year will insist that acas becomes involved prior to national or local disputes. Any one who has been involved with acas and i have twice will know that it assists matters and makes it impossible for Royal Mail to just say no without explaining why and giving their rationale.

Now Dvbuk is right ( see I agree with you ) the members will have the final say and of course Branches will make their own recommendation to the members. However their will be no chance of defeating any agreement unless you have a major campaign with the support of at least 4 divisions experience shows this as the only two agreements voted out were the way forward and the attendance procedure both of which came in with minor changes 2nd time round.

What is tiresome dingo,is people who haven't done this job for 10,15 and 20 years thinking they know the job "inside out".
First you tell us there will not be a "no-strike deal" and then you tell us there will be measures to aviod industrial action.
As for any new employment legislation,i am unaware of any due that will INSIST acas becomes involved maybe you could provide a link,then we could ALL be aware of it.
And as far as "no chance of defeating any agreement" What an arrogant statement.
There has never been an agreement with such wide ranging implications as this one,so history is irrelevant.
Either you believe this will be such a great agreement success is guaranteed.
Or you believe we are a bunch of idiots who will agree to anything.
Which is it dingo?

[Big Daz]

I cant see anything on ACAS website

[Big Daz]

Fishtank


This is the closest i can find based on titles and headlines, havent read it yet though to see if it could be what Dingo is referring to


http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/employm ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;