BBC PANORAMA DISCUSSION THREAD

[Ahebban]

It is certainly starting to get tense on RMC ...

is it the xmas pressure? .. is it the lack of information about negotiations? .. is it the frustration of seeing Panorama teasing us and the public with glimpses of the real Royal Mail?

[BELIAL]

Fishtank the national agreement will provide some parimaters around delivery spans. The reason why they wont be one span agreed nationally is for a viarety of reasons , some offices will be getting walk sequencing machines before others , some will be having car derived vans before others and some will be getting both at the same time.

So it will be down to your local reps , Branchs to decide wether you perfer to keep 3.5 hour spans or you want to look at maximising full time jobs by going to a longer span. Without Car derived vans and the right equipment you cannot go much past 3.5 span. However anyone who has agreed a geo route revison there are quite a few who broke the unions policy already have a longer span as the 3.5 hour which geo route plotted is without replinishment time so once this is added to a walk then walks are longer than 3.5 hours.

However what i find is strange is that everyone is having a go at the union for daring to suggust longer spans may provide full time jobs in the future but then when the cwu suggust that the span should be determind by the local office taking into account some safeguards from the national agreement and that no office needs to agree longer spans that they are shirking their responsbilities.

Now for the record Belial the Gatwick and Bristol National union shows a reduction of indoor work far in excess than that you have quoted. I know the old walk sequencing trails which was under the safeguarding our future agreement never produced the figures which Royal Mail thought they would as in the cluster offices it didt do wave 4 or 5. However I think you will find both the Gatwick and Bristol trails are the only trails which have processed the mail which clears the mail centre at 4. 40 in the morning.

So in short the union is not and neither am i insisting you go past 3.5 hours that will be your reps choice and your choice but it will ultametely determine the amount of full time jobs. Intresting that CWU HQs have countless offices and reps around the country asking for the authority to move past 3.5 hours now.

Stunned and bitterly disappointed doesn't even begin to cover my feelings on this response.Must say I do wholeheartedly agree with the weight of sentiment expressed in reply to the above post.For the record, you ignored the point about increased IPS, you ignored the point about the introduction of sequencing machines NOT increasing DO mech mail at all. Odd that you think "old" trial results are not relevant ,given the technology is identical ,and the figures I supplied are from an office that got walk sequenced mail today(sorry can't get more up to date than that)
But the most worrying thing is your response to Fishtank re. local agreements. FFS if RM has a problem with coordinating change then it is RM's problem why the CWU should think the workforce have to bend over backwards to aid the mass redundancy program ,god knows. I think Linkin Sums it up very well
Just my opinion ,but you go for longer spans and union HQ could be easily relocated to Rickmansworth scout hut.

[Geordie]

Dingo

Can you clarify your comments on delivery spans?

Is it the case that delivery spans will be negotiated locally full stop; or that they will be chosen locally from a range of nationally agreed options?

For example, it could be agreed nationally that all walking deliveries stay at 3.5 hours for turns carrying bags; 4 hours if used with a trolley; and 5 hours if done by car derived van. (I merely use these times as an example). Each unit could then pick from those options and have a mix of all three.

Or are you saying it is simply up to each unit to agree what they want on delivery spans.

If it is the latter, then a national Union is about to be fragmented into 1500 pieces.

[upmyroad]

Looking at this thread I have only one question.
IS THE CWU LISTENING TO IT'S MEMBERS, OR DOES IT HAVE IT'S OWN AGENDA.

[coca cola]

And we all know a 5 hr walkspan with Royal Mail means at least 5 an a half whats the union playing at u couldnt make it up!

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Fishtank the national agreement will provide some parimaters around delivery spans.

Some - it should provide all as a baseline that the DOs have to meet and if they don't - sorry No Local Agreement . I fear his sounds like the wishy washy "1/2 hour flexibility" and even more vague "Lapsing" errors being repeated.

The reason why they wont be one span agreed nationally is for a viarety of reasons , some offices will be getting walk sequencing machines before others , some will be having car derived vans before others and some will be getting both at the same time.

So agree base line for each style of delivery - don't leave it up to the Local Rep who still has to do a duty as well as be a rep. IMHO its the Area Reps and above's responsbility to do the work of agreements that's why they get full release - the buck should NOT be passed to Unit reps which is what appears to be happening.

So it will be down to your local reps , Branchs to decide wether you perfer to keep 3.5 hour spans or you want to look at maximising full time jobs by going to a longer span. Without Car derived vans and the right equipment you cannot go much past 3.5 span.

So as suggested above get a baseline agreement as tight as a drum to help the reps on the ground.

However anyone who has agreed a geo route revison there are quite a few who broke the unions policy already have a longer span as the 3.5 hour which geo route plotted is without replinishment time so once this is added to a walk then walks are longer than 3.5 hours.

The reason some divisions/areas/offices did was lack of leadership and foresight - The CWU now has a chance of not repeating that mistake yet the blinkers seem firmly attached.

However what i find is strange is that everyone is having a go at the union for daring to suggust longer spans may provide full time jobs in the future but then when the cwu suggust that the span should be determind by the local office taking into account some safeguards from the national agreement and that no office needs to agree longer spans that they are shirking their responsibilities.

But the people who are suggesting longer spans are 1. Not delivery posties 2. Wont have to do the deliveries 3. Are leaving the final decision up to local reps when they should be doing most of the preparation and tying down loose ends. Because if they don't we WILL end up in the same situation as P&M07.

So in short the union is not and neither am i insisting you go past 3.5 hours that will be your reps choice and your choice but it will ultametely determine the amount of full time jobs. Intresting that CWU HQs have countless offices and reps around the country asking for the authority to move past 3.5 hours now.

No but what you are doing with having such vague agreements is leaving the door open and RM will push it wide and exploit it to the fullest. They will do this with any agreement so YOU have to make it as watertight as possible.

To paint a comparison its like the Germans during the war, if they did something Hitler did not like the SS would give them a Luger and leave the room. With RM and the CWU its like we are paying for the weapon, the bullet that goes into it and the clean up processes after the act. The CWU are just providing the blindfold so we don't see anything.

[themaze617]

You can get a running gps watch and it will show distance travelled, average speed and you can see the route you took on google earth.

[djchrisc]

You can also download a running app for your mobile phone with gps tracking, the data it provides will open your eyes to just how long your duty really is,
it tell you how many steps, exactly how many miles , walking speed evrything you need to know really.

Back on topic,the programme was excellent, just wish it was an hour not 30 minutes, hope there is a follow up programme.
The point raised by the ex-marine that he could not do the job 5 days a week really struck home,
in my office our duties are 3 hours and 50 minutes but we also absorb 20 mins, so in otal we are out on delivery for 4 hours 10 minutes.

[POSTMAN]

Got a message from the producer....

My aim was to present an impartial view of what we found as we researched what was happening in the Royal Mail. The one thing that came across was how hard posties work.

[smokerjim]

Got a message from the producer....

My aim was to present an impartial view of what we found as we researched what was happening in the Royal Mail. The one thing that came across was how hard posties work.

Postman, I'm sure you've already told them this, but can I just personally say that after months and months of pro-RM media reporting ( from fluffy misrepresnetaion on BBC News to frothing at the mouth apopolexy in the Daily ( Royal ) Mail ) how blissfully overjoyed I was to see an honest report - neither pro-RM, nor pro-Union / worker.....just coming in as an outsider, and telling it how it is, so that other outsiders ( millions of them ) can understand how it is.

An excellent piece of journalism - many thanks from a postman in Sevenoaks.

[barty]

going slightly off topic but won't walk sequences machines help resolve arguments over duty workloads as for the first time actual real time daly traffic numbers per walk, home etc will be available, This combined with GPS, if Pegaus is really is that unreliable, ought to help provide data on each posties "walk performance".

[Fluke]

going slightly off topic but won't walk sequences machines help resolve arguments over duty workloads as for the first time actual real time daly traffic numbers per walk, home etc will be available, This combined with GPS, if Pegaus is really is that unreliable, ought to help provide data on each posties "walk performance".

The problem is that you cant trust RM to give you correct or accurate information without distorting the figures to suit themselves.

[Martin Walsh]

Look I know I am becoming public enemy number 1 for pointing out the fact that the walk sequencing trials in both Gatwick and Bristol has changed the goal post in a big way. Belial you asked me to explain why the intial trail sites were not as relvant as the current ones. Well that is easy the current trials didt have a joined up national workplan.

The reason why Royal Mail has gone to one outward plan in mail centres is to maximise the window in mail centres to concentrate on the inward including allowing more time to be spent on walk sequencing . Royal Mail have installed the intelegent LSMs to assist this process.

The Gatwick walk sequencing trail serves 15 offices in the catchment area. All work is processed which clears a mail centre which can be automated. Currently in the Gatwick trail thats appox 80% of an offices work ( it varies office to office but as an average across the 15 offices thats what it does ) In the old trials they never run through the WSM machines the work which according to the workplan clears the mail centre 4.40 in the morning. Off course not every mail centre has yet introduced one outward plan for the mail centres. For the record one out ward plan basically means to send out the work to the various mail centres but without breaking it down to the various catchment areas ie the ex PHG job. This allows the mail centre to concentrate on processing the inward.

The point is that the second batch which is due to clear a mail centre workplan by 4.40 in the morning ( and as postman rightly points out not all mail centres achieve the work plan ) this work has to now run through the walk sequencing machines rather than going to straight to the delivery office as now. This work has to now have 3 passes on the WSM and is done in batches of appox 12 walks. The machines is very fast however as the machine has to be cleared down 3 times manually this slows down the process considerably. So depending where your delivery office is to where the walk sequencing machine is sited will depend on what time you will getting the second percentage of work. In Eastbourne "s case the second percentage of work arrives near 10 o clock in the morning.

So from your normal start time you will have packets to IPS , flats to IPS and machine regects to IPS. In the trail sites in has produced a significant reduction in ips.( the orginal trial sties didt ) Plus the prep is in seqencing order and whilst is repetive it is quicker that normal prep.

Royal Mail of course are arguing if their is a small percentage of work available from the normal start times and a reduction in IPS that you dont need 100 % of staff in at that time. So they propose that a significant amount of staff dont need to start until the second percentage of work arrives in the office.

Hence the problem. Do we do what some of you sugguest just disregard this evidence and argue that walk sequencing and other automation does not reduce IPS or Prep time or do we look at what can be done to maximise full time employment one of the reasons a lot of people supported the strikes. Royal Mail have streadlily got to the point where in some areas there are more part timers than full timers. Intresting enough thou a significant number of part timers would like to have the opportunity to progress to full time hours as well.

So what is the union looking for. Well the Shorter working week is obviously one and their are two options a 35 hour net working week or a 38 hour gross. The choice is differcult and the 35 hour net is about giving up paid meal relief and appox reduces 1 hour 40 off the working week. By converting the paid meal reliefs we would be looking at getting our hourly rate up to £10 per hour in the first year of a 3 year deal on modenstation. Unpaid meal relefs is a common theme in the trade union movement to increase the hourly rate, in fact under the professional drivers agreement paid meal reliefs were removed. There is a legal entilement to a meal relief so any indivdual will have their right to a meal relief protected by law albeit it an unpaid one.

The reason why the CWU is considering this option is that not all of our members take either their whole meal relief or a meal relief at all. Our campaigns to do the job properly is evidence to this. However if indivduals would rather have a less hourly rate and simply a reduction of two hours off the working week then that is the other option.

Door to Door into workload will also biuld duty time into your duty . Off course the union wants to have a delivery supplement before agreeing to this. However Royal Mail are nervous that they will be paying twice once in the supplement and by now having duty time allocated to door to door within your own prep and delivery times.

Of course due to the fact that walk sequencing will be running friday night they want the Union to agree that Saturday will become a normal working day with some offices having duty times till 3 in the afternoon which is one of the main stumberling blocks as we know how controversial such a proposal will be. There are various options being considered for this inclduing less saturdays restoring a different Saturday pay rate.

Now the issue of spans , well its about choices , if your office wanted 3.5 hour spans then the national agreement will have the parimeters for you to do this, the problem you will have thou is does this give you enough full time jobs now that the workplan has changed. ?

Equally if car derived vans ( park and loop ) has been introduced does this model provide the right method for you to perform a longer delivery. Plus what about doing a part of a longer span coming back having a break and then going out again to finish the remainder.

If the union increased the hourly rate then the possiblity of someone who didt want to perfrom a longer span could buy down their hours but possibly keep the same money and perform a 3.5 hour span.

What someone needs to understand the union will provide a framework for local discussions options and support but only an office knows what the staff want in that office. Linkin we have reps in a lot more places that just 50% but yes area reps will have to do the work where there are no local reps. It would be wrong for CWU HQs to do the revison for all offices in the UK without knowing what the staff want in that partiuclar office including the finish time for saturdays , earnings , ratio of full time or the walks.

Look I dont live in a gold fish bowl , I meet the members and visit the offices I have held over 150 meetings with members in different workplaces over the last year. I know the members concerns but they also like to hear Royal Mails plans. I have never accepted Royal Mail"s agenda , I have led many strikes both officially and unofficially in the past and of course was part of the London dispute.

So I know that I am willing to fight to protect our jobs in the future not just snipe on a computer.

However I am a realist and whilst there is a time to fight , and we are not out of the woods yet however across the UK there are now 145 agreements where Royal Mail had taken executive action. We also have to understand how do we acheve the best agreement going forward.

[Exrep]

Dingo very good detailed post with a lot of info, im my opinion were going to have very dark days ahead of us.

I understand the impact all the new machinery is going to have on the job in the future ,but is the union really having a duty of care to its members when its talking about 4.5-5hr delivery spans.

Park and loop will not be in all offices and i predict mostly in rurals but the delivery span times and park/loop are all guess work by all of us on here due to the CWU hierachys lack of information on the ongoing talks.

Have the union honestly considered the impact it will have on peoples bodies longer delivery spans will have. Regardless of your age if you have worked for R/M for a ,long time i bet like mine and im only 36 you have bad ankles.knees,hips and shoulders. I havnt a clue on the best forward ,well i do but im living in dream land ( Back to two deliveries) .

I struggle now physically to do a 3.5hr delivery due to my problems described above and im in a lot of pain as i near to the end of my beat,i hobble back to the office.

I for one will reject this when it comes to vote and i will tell our members in my office to aswell. This is not modernisation this is suicidal but i suppose if R/M want a P/T work force its one way of getting rid of us F/T.

A good leader will firstly do the task himself before asking it members to do it so i hope Mr.Ward and Mr.Hayes will walk the walk before agreeing longer delivery spans.

If this happens in the future and my opinion has changed over the last few weeks the union can go FECK themselves i will resign as rep and cease my membership to the union .Due to the fact they have not looked after my best interest. Firstly tho i will fight and stand on the gate if needed.

If you read the majority of my posts i have never slagged off the CWU only defended them but im getting more an more frustrated with them,the task that the union has on its hands at present must be a very difficult one in a way i suppose they are stuck behind the black ball.

We as the members need to be strong especially through JAN/FEB and reject what the union tell us to accept ( If that is the things discussed in this thread) and we have to make them listen for once what we want as we are the CWU not them. If R/M have to bring in there future plans by EXE ACT fine they can and if needed we will have to take action indefinately.

As ive said i dont know what answers are but i do know the job was working fine before hand so why tinker with somethink that isnt broken,4.5-5hr delivery spans will break me. I enjoy my job and i get through the aches/pains like we all do and we very rarely moan about them so i hope the CWU actually read the threads on this marvellous site and take note of what its members are saying. Gut instinct tells me the union will be dead after this dispute as members will abandon them in there droves .

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Thanks for the explanation but perhaps its now time to talk about the elephant standing in their corner.

If we are going to have Local Agreements which are guided by National Agreements but not controlled by them, (as in my suggestion of having a robust national agreement that the local ones have to apply as a minimum) what is the point of having a National Union HQ as large as the one we have now.

If we are going to go down the Local Agreements route then do we really need all of the current hierarchy of national reps and officers, perhaps we could save a lot of money by trimming HQ down a bit.