Can I be dismissed when........

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Whats the difference between Intentional Delay & Wilful Delay,

I think its a difference in how the delay was carried out

Willful is a planned and deliberate act. Like leaving stuff on top of the frame without permission, putting mail back into the system without attempting delivery etc.

Intentional Delay is unplanned but still deliberate like finding a letter in the wrong place and putting it to one side to deliver later, but then forgetting it and finding it when you get back.

I hasten to add I have no idea if that's right its just a guess.

I have looked into this a bit further I now think the difference is only in application. Intentional Delay is an internal RM matter. Willful delay is a crime under UK Law and for which you can be dismissed and in the last resort imprisoned

[Sci_Dog]

What would be interesting is the figures for posties dismissed which then on appeal, (obviously not at the internal appeals stage i.e. Snr Appeals Manager) get overturned at an ET.

Wonder what the percentage is in a given timescale, and also, wonder if a SAM has ever overturned a DOM/MCM's decison, I bet never!

The above has been playing on my mind for a few weeks now. If a (bullying, incompetent and incapable) local DOM makes a (petty and without substance) conduct case which is then passed up to a senior manager to deal with. How many senior mangers have the balls to go against the local manager if they genuinely feel it is unjust?

Also if the senior manager takes the action to dismiss and this would then be appealed internally. If the appeal doesn't work out and it goes a step further (would this then be at the stage for a tribunal?) and at this stage the decision goes for you would this not a show a lot of flaws in the Royal Mail system?

DOM makes petty conduct case, senior manager doesn't want to go against another manager, the internal appeal system doesn't want to go against the senior manager. Surely someone, somewhere as to answer for their actions if the whole system is shown to be corrupt? I've said it before and I'll say it again.....right from Mr Adam Crozier himself right down to lowest ranked manager there is, the MAJORITY of them are incompetent, incapable and lying bullyboys. I'm sure there is some good managers. I have met one I think in 10 years.

[Sci_Dog]

Sci_Dog: dont answer if you dont want to - but what does putting the USO at risk actually mean? I thought it referred to intentional delay but that was already given as a seperate point in your letter....

And what does "causing additional expense to the business relate to?"

Royal Mail are unbelievable!

I think it is more of less called making the rules (or in this case charges) up as we go along matey........

[Sci_Dog]

if a dom or manager doesnt like you they will make up anything they want to get back at you.

just nore everything down
if worst happens and you go to a tribunal make them pay

i surely will

I would rather get it sorted sooner rather than later to be totally honest. However I will pursue and exhaust all avenues if Thursday's decision goes against.

[Sci_Dog]

Bullying fit up - end of , vicious & hostile .

Nail has indeed been hit firmly on the head matey.

[Sci_Dog]

If Royal Mail could sort out the management issue then that would go a long way to sorting the company out. (BTW whether or not you support privatiation - this would sort this matter out once and for all). Everyone knows about the management style, even the Sawyer report highlighted this in 2001. I honestly dont know how some managers can sleep at night.

Whats the difference between Intentional Delay & Wilful Delay, can someone please enlighten me? Sci_Dog - you mention previously that you got a 2-yr Serious for this combined with putting the USO at risk...are you saying the DOM is trying to rehash this? Or is this another set of seperate charges? Reading between the lines is he trying to do you on 'performance issues'?

Sounds like a right tw@t.

I have almost 10 years service done with Royal Mail. In all those 10 years I have NEVER had any long term sick or my conduct called into question.....until now. Since April of this year a bullying, incompetent and incapable manager has managed to put 2 serious conduct cases against me. Firstly he could have 90% of the office charged with the same offences. He choose me. With the first case I met them halfway and on the basis that the rest of the office was going to be challenged on their performance and efficiency. This didn't materialiase. From April until September no one was challenged about their performance or efficiency. As I said they could have 90% of the office not meeting their standards on any day. I asked my local Assistant DOM a few times when were other people going to be challenged and the response I got was 'soon'. Surprise, surprise there was a new conduct case against someone! That someone being me and a conduct case with more holes than a tramps sock! Not a great place to be troops. Not a great place at all. I then talk to the Union Rep who said they'll deal with it at local level. Nope, up the line it went to a senior manager. I then inquire about filing a victimisation case in against the manager and was informed it would be of more benefit to file it after the outcome of the conduct case. Great! Absolutely f**king great. I have a manager victimising me and I can't do anything about it until I get the outcome of the conduct case (which could be my dismissal!) pursued by the bullying manager! Absolutely laughable! After I heard that I really couldn't take anymore. My doctor signed me off with stress and told me my anxiety levels are sky high. ATOS also have told me that I can't return to work until I get the outcome of the conduct case. If it goes against me then obviously I have no job to go back to. If I still have a job ATOS have told me I can't return until the problems with the manager are sorted one way or the other. So here I am now......in my 8th week off with stress and waiting for the outcome of the conduct case on Thursday morning at 9am.

The above explains my situation more or less matey. The first 2 year serious warning was a result of a performance issue. I only accepted this because I was led to believe more people were to be challenged about their performances. It didn't happen. When I enquired about this the only thing which did happen was another conduct case me. A very petty and without any substance whatsoever conduct case. The second conduct case is not performance related but basically they are saying I didn't fulfill my 40 hour contract one week. They are saying I got paid for 40 hours but only worked 39 hours and 30 mins. They are saying that these 30 mins result in the charges off intentional delay of mail, putting the USO at risk and causing additional expense to the business. The real problem is with the managers having two or three different ways of working out the hours owed and if the signing in/out sheets are done daily or weekly. Will any senior manager question the way a manager manages? I wish!

[fmrPOSTIE]

Reading the above post Sci_Dog I am honestly left gobsmacked at what they are trying to do! Trying to beat you down because you argued against the initial penalty.

Well I hope things go well thursday matey, if they are giving you the outcome face-face then that suggests to me that it wont be the sack, but thats only my view!

[norbert]

What would be interesting is the figures for posties dismissed which then on appeal, (obviously not at the internal appeals stage i.e. Snr Appeals Manager) get overturned at an ET.

Wonder what the percentage is in a given timescale, and also, wonder if a SAM has ever overturned a DOM/MCM's decison, I bet never!

The above has been playing on my mind for a few weeks now. If a (bullying, incompetent and incapable) local DOM makes a (petty and without substance) conduct case which is then passed up to a senior manager to deal with. How many senior mangers have the balls to go against the local manager if they genuinely feel it is unjust?

Also if the senior manager takes the action to dismiss and this would then be appealed internally. If the appeal doesn't work out and it goes a step further (would this then be at the stage for a tribunal?) and at this stage the decision goes for you would this not a show a lot of flaws in the Royal Mail system?

DOM makes petty conduct case, senior manager doesn't want to go against another manager, the internal appeal system doesn't want to go against the senior manager. Surely someone, somewhere as to answer for their actions if the whole system is shown to be corrupt? I've said it before and I'll say it again.....right from Mr Adam Crozier himself right down to lowest ranked manager there is, the MAJORITY of them are incompetent, incapable and lying bullyboys. I'm sure there is some good managers. I have met one I think in 10 years.

It's to break people - soften them up for privatisation - Prison style butt rape - quite deliberate orders from on high , you stood up to them , so they teach you a lesson .

The more senior managers need bully boys 1 . To feel safe and secure 2 . You've a managerial system that operates for the benefit of the managers within it instead of running something - so they need to be fed with what they want to hear .

They've got somebody out of the door , they've worn them down so they won't make trouble for RM outside the PO .

RM has always been defensive and secretive and regarded itself as above the law - just got worse with :lfo & :cfo

[goldi2k9]

evry chance they will back off because of the possible "bad publicity" , i had a 3rd stage warning due to an accident at work and my union rep went with me and ripped their case to shreds, i attended with a frozen shoulder, they put me back to a 2nd stage and 6 months probation, 4 months later i got £18,000 for ill health retirement , if you do attend then for gods sake take your area union rep, they know exactly how to deal with area mangers on power trips, i doubt very much if you will lose your job .

[Sci_Dog]

Reading the above post Sci_Dog I am honestly left gobsmacked at what they are trying to do! Trying to beat you down because you argued against the initial penalty.

Well I hope things go well thursday matey, if they are giving you the outcome face-face then that suggests to me that it wont be the sack, but thats only my view!

Thanks for your support for Thursday mate. Much appreciated. However If I do get dismissed on Thursday, I'm sure I'll not be the first or the last to have received the decision face-to-face. They maybe even get pleasure from sacking someone face-to-face knowing they have grinded them down.

[Sci_Dog]

What would be interesting is the figures for posties dismissed which then on appeal, (obviously not at the internal appeals stage i.e. Snr Appeals Manager) get overturned at an ET.

Wonder what the percentage is in a given timescale, and also, wonder if a SAM has ever overturned a DOM/MCM's decison, I bet never!

The above has been playing on my mind for a few weeks now. If a (bullying, incompetent and incapable) local DOM makes a (petty and without substance) conduct case which is then passed up to a senior manager to deal with. How many senior mangers have the balls to go against the local manager if they genuinely feel it is unjust?

Also if the senior manager takes the action to dismiss and this would then be appealed internally. If the appeal doesn't work out and it goes a step further (would this then be at the stage for a tribunal?) and at this stage the decision goes for you would this not a show a lot of flaws in the Royal Mail system?

DOM makes petty conduct case, senior manager doesn't want to go against another manager, the internal appeal system doesn't want to go against the senior manager. Surely someone, somewhere as to answer for their actions if the whole system is shown to be corrupt? I've said it before and I'll say it again.....right from Mr Adam Crozier himself right down to lowest ranked manager there is, the MAJORITY of them are incompetent, incapable and lying bullyboys. I'm sure there is some good managers. I have met one I think in 10 years.

It's to break people - soften them up for privatisation - Prison style butt rape - quite deliberate orders from on high , you stood up to them , so they teach you a lesson .

The more senior managers need bully boys 1 . To feel safe and secure 2 . You've a managerial system that operates for the benefit of the managers within it instead of running something - so they need to be fed with what they want to hear .

They've got somebody out of the door , they've worn them down so they won't make trouble for RM outside the PO .

RM has always been defensive and secretive and regarded itself as above the law - just got worse with :lfo & :cfo

Basically Royal Mail are hoping that if the decision goes against me on Thursday, that I'll not have any fight left in me to take it further???

When is the bullying managers and corrupt managerial systems going to be brought to light???

[Sci_Dog]

i doubt very much if you will lose your job .

I'm not just as confident as you matey. Hope your right though.

[norbert]

Quite a lot of firms with a very autocratic , negative & " robust " style of management used " grind down " , particularly in the 90's . It's just a game / gamble to them and it will be .

With RM there's a unreal arrogance about using it . That manager sounds very ambitious as Teebs has said with a very regimented style it's the only way his sort can make a name for himself and I suspect RM will stop at nothing to protect him .

Great War General Management - you're a scalp and on Planet RM your dismissal will stiffen resolve to eat sh** amongst remaining staff .

Very nasty & vindictive .

The Union want a inquiry into RM's bullying culture . Ward says RM are frightened of such a investigation . Higson won't accept that bullying is widespread .

In reality RM have got a problem with out of control managers despite all the regimentation .

Have a look at Kay the big Bird's posts - she'd to fight RM tooth and nail to the bitter end . RM virtually settled on the tribunal steps . RM obviously wanted Bristol scalps .

[norbert]

Reading the above post Sci_Dog I am honestly left gobsmacked at what they are trying to do! Trying to beat you down because you argued against the initial penalty.

Well I hope things go well thursday matey, if they are giving you the outcome face-face then that suggests to me that it wont be the sack, but thats only my view!

14 have been sacked at our place in the last 2 years, all suspended 1st, then fact finding, then asked for a face to face and sacked by the cluster DOM.

Maybe its a new thing along with the letters after being sick for a few days etc etc , just bullying and harrassment.

Good luck Sci Dog, hope I havent put a dampener on things pal

the face to face is just to make it look " straight " , they know they could get castigated for being cowardly and impersonal if they just sent a dismissal letter by Special Delivery ( Of Course ) .

On Planet RM they've followed their own procedure , it is all politics , to a foregone conclusion and to impress - the onus is on staff to prove it's corrupt , flawed , all a sham etc .

[Sci_Dog]

Quite a lot of firms with a very autocratic , negative & " robust " style of management used " grind down " , particularly in the 90's . It's just a game / gamble to them and it will be .

With RM there's a unreal arrogance about using it . That manager sounds very ambitious as Teebs has said with a very regimented style it's the only way his sort can make a name for himself and I suspect RM will stop at nothing to protect him .

Great War General Management - you're a scalp and on Planet RM your dismissal will stiffen resolve to eat sh** amongst remaining staff .

Very nasty & vindictive .

The Union want a inquiry into RM's bullying culture . Ward says RM are frightened of such a investigation . Higson won't accept that bullying is widespread .

In reality RM have got a problem with out of control managers despite all the regimentation .

Have a look at Kay the big Bird's posts - she'd to fight RM tooth and nail to the bitter end . RM virtually settled on the tribunal steps . RM obviously wanted Bristol scalps .

I also will fight Royal Mail tooth and nail to the bitter end. Wherever it takes me, I'll be there. If I felt this conduct case had any substance then I would have no cause to feel the way I do. However the conduct case is petty, has absolutely no substance, is based on lies and deceit by a incompetent manager trying to make himself out to be a force not to be reckoned with.

As you say Higson won't accept that bullying is widespread throughout the company. If this is the case Mr Higson, what are you afraid off? Why won't you let a totally independant body conduct an investigation into bullying? Prove us the workers wrong if you feel that way. Surely Royal Mail and their army of managers haven't anything untoward to hide? Or do they? I think Mr Higson has already answered this.