Can I be dismissed when........

[island_boy]

Sorry to say but yes they can sack you as your are not being sacked for your sickness record, think about it, say someone did something seriously wrong, ie punch a manager, he could just go on the sick for a year, full wages 6 month, half wages 6 month, thats clearly not acceptable, now if you were getting sacked because you were sick then thats a different matter

[Sci_Dog]

If you are on sick leave or go on sick leave, it is unreasonable for an employer to force you to attend a displinary or grievance meeting except with medical advice from a specialist. Also an employer has to be careful that illness is not due to a work incident which breaches health and safety rules or in your case brought on by a work related conduct case, or to an illness that is covered under the disability discrimination act.

A tip,get your doctor to write this on a sick note..."unable to attend any workplace meetings"
If your doctor writes something like this on your sick note it is very hard for them to hold any disciplinary meetings as doing so requires your attendance (for fair play - whatever that is), and to do so leaves them open to legal action if they knowingly do something that damages your health. Although it is possible that they will ignore it, even most poor employers will back off, at least for a time.

Evening General! Some interesting points. However I don't want to prolong the decision. I would like to attend the meeting and see where I stand. The senior manager has made his decision and I suppose I want to hear it. Whether it be for me or against me it's not gonna change.

The reason I am off with stress is work related and is intertwined with an incompetent manager and a petty conduct case.

My Union has informed me if the decision does go against me, they a case for 'constructive dismissal' will be started with immediate effect. I hope it doesn't come to that but if it does so be it. If the decision goes for me then it will be a 'victimisation case' against the incompetent manager that will be started. However I still have to get the decision on this conduct case first.

The more I read the more I think I can be dismissed whilst being off sick as long as the reason they give for the dismissal is NOT related to my sickness or health.

Would I be right in saying the above sentence?

[Sci_Dog]

Sorry to say but yes they can sack you as your are not being sacked for your sickness record, think about it, say someone did something seriously wrong, ie punch a manager, he could just go on the sick for a year, full wages 6 month, half wages 6 month, thats clearly not acceptable, now if you were getting sacked because you were sick then thats a different matter

If I did get sacked on Thursday as you said the reason wouldn't be because of my sickness record. However the reason I am off sick is 'work related stress'. This has been confirmed by my GP and ATOS. This work related stress has many factors-

A bullying and incompetent manager.

A petty conduct case.

Victimisation.

Royal Mail and the way the business is run is the reason I'm stressed.

If I do get dismissed then I suppose I have a fight on my hands. The above points mixed together with a dismissal gives me a pretty damn good start. I've heard the Union Rep talk of building a case for 'constructive dismissal'. If the decision does go against me on Thursday I suppose I'm hoping to be the winner in the long run. Using whatever it takes to show how incapable Royal Mail managers are. The Union is pretty confident I can beat Royal Mail if I am in for the long haul. I suppose I would rather just get it sorted sooner rather than later though.

Bad times.

[REDLETTER]

Sorry to say but yes they can sack you as your are not being sacked for your sickness record, think about it, say someone did something seriously wrong, ie punch a manager, he could just go on the sick for a year, full wages 6 month, half wages 6 month, thats clearly not acceptable, now if you were getting sacked because you were sick then thats a different matter

If I did get sacked on Thursday as you said the reason wouldn't be because of my sickness record. However the reason I am off sick is 'work related stress'. This has been confirmed by my GP and ATOS. This work related stress has many factors-

A bullying and incompetent manager.

A petty conduct case.

Victimisation.

Royal Mail and the way the business is run is the reason I'm stressed.

If I do get dismissed then I suppose I have a fight on my hands. The above points mixed together with a dismissal gives me a pretty damn good start. I've heard the Union Rep talk of building a case for 'constructive dismissal'. If the decision does go against me on Thursday I suppose I'm hoping to be the winner in the long run. Using whatever it takes to show how incapable Royal Mail managers are. The Union is pretty confident I can beat Royal Mail if I am in for the long haul. I suppose I would rather just get it sorted sooner rather than later though.

Bad times.

I was told when I was off with "work related stress" by ATOS that it wasn't a recognised medical condition!! WTF Yeh depression etc is but..........! Mine too caused by "A bullying and incompetent manager" - chin up mate!

I hope they sent you your letter via Special Delivery!

[Sci_Dog]

Sorry to say but yes they can sack you as your are not being sacked for your sickness record, think about it, say someone did something seriously wrong, ie punch a manager, he could just go on the sick for a year, full wages 6 month, half wages 6 month, thats clearly not acceptable, now if you were getting sacked because you were sick then thats a different matter

If I did get sacked on Thursday as you said the reason wouldn't be because of my sickness record. However the reason I am off sick is 'work related stress'. This has been confirmed by my GP and ATOS. This work related stress has many factors-

A bullying and incompetent manager.

A petty conduct case.

Victimisation.

Royal Mail and the way the business is run is the reason I'm stressed.

If I do get dismissed then I suppose I have a fight on my hands. The above points mixed together with a dismissal gives me a pretty damn good start. I've heard the Union Rep talk of building a case for 'constructive dismissal'. If the decision does go against me on Thursday I suppose I'm hoping to be the winner in the long run. Using whatever it takes to show how incapable Royal Mail managers are. The Union is pretty confident I can beat Royal Mail if I am in for the long haul. I suppose I would rather just get it sorted sooner rather than later though.

Bad times.

I was told when I was off with "work related stress" by ATOS that it wasn't a recognised medical condition!! WTF Yeh depression etc is but..........! Mine too caused by "A bullying and incompetent manager" - chin up mate!

I hope they sent you your letter via Special Delivery!

Don't they bloody always?! I'm trying to keep the chin up mate! God knows I'm trying! It could fall on Thursday though! It'll be a case of coming to terms with the decision then gathering up the troops and getting our next plan of attack into action.

[norbert]

If you are on sick leave or go on sick leave, it is unreasonable for an employer to force you to attend a displinary or grievance meeting except with medical advice from a specialist. Also an employer has to be careful that illness is not due to a work incident which breaches health and safety rules or in your case brought on by a work related conduct case, or to an illness that is covered under the disability discrimination act.

A tip,get your doctor to write this on a sick note..."unable to attend any workplace meetings"
If your doctor writes something like this on your sick note it is very hard for them to hold any disciplinary meetings as doing so requires your attendance (for fair play - whatever that is), and to do so leaves them open to legal action if they knowingly do something that damages your health. Although it is possible that they will ignore it, even most poor employers will back off, at least for a time.

- it would be deemed as unreasonable , if you are signed off with the intention of being kept away from the source of stress , common sense would dictate that being brought in early could ruin recovery , therefore RM must wait till you are ready .

Knowing RM , they'll be bolshy about it .

[headscrewedon]

Sorry to say but yes they can sack you as your are not being sacked for your sickness record, think about it, say someone did something seriously wrong, ie punch a manager, he could just go on the sick for a year, full wages 6 month, half wages 6 month, thats clearly not acceptable, now if you were getting sacked because you were sick then thats a different matter

Also, if it was the case that RM can't sack someone whilst they are off sick, wouldn't everyone being dismissed for ANY reasons not related to attendance just go off sick as soon as they realise they are about to lose their job ? It would be the perfect get-out, since the thought of imminent dismissal would itself be stressful and give a doctor good reason to sign you off work

[snoopy777]

yes you can be sacked whilst signed off sick. if work is the cuase of your stress then removing you from that employment will aide your health and recovery.
are you guilty of the conduct against you
ask our union about track record on proving constructive dismissal- an exceptional difficult thing to prove.
go in, face the decison (hopefully will not be a dismissal but less severe) and move on

[wranglered]

you can be sacked Sci Dog.

what is your union rep going on about constructive dismissal for?

this involves you resigning.....let them sack you and come and see me....a pro!

[norbert]

you can be sacked Sci Dog.

what is your union rep going on about constructive dismissal for?

this involves you resigning.....let them sack you and come and see me....a pro!

I believe constructive dismissal is notoriously hard to prove / argue for even for a lawyer .

I can see the Union's POV though , 1 . RM can't take the pension money back 2 . The DWP can't put sanctions against you if you resigned and basically jumped before you were pushed but they can and will for dismissal for gross misconduct .

RM's attitude apparently is you must prove they constructed your resignation .

The danger is that you may be seen as " unreasonable " by the tribunal as you didn't go through the RM appeals process - the " troublemaker / sh**slinger ? and compensation may be reduced .

It is obviously laughable as RM are solely concerned with protecting their managers ( there's insecure middle managers that need to be fed with what they want to hear ) and being obstructive but the Tribunal are not to know that ? . RM may try too hard to protect rogue junior managers and they can be tripped up ? .

However they are notorious for botching things , handling things unprofessionally , settling petty vendettas / playground politics , acting judgmentally , a too black and white view of things , acting as above employment law or at the very edge of / putting perverse interpretations on things as we all know .
arrogance can be RM's achilles heel too & there's more than one way of skinning a cat .

The other weakness is this very regimented emperor's new clothes thing i.e. everything is purely to impress a more senior manager - on Planet RM - everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet . Far too much politics , with or without a small " p " .

So there may be some hope if RM can be prosecuted properly or nailed for things

This happens in civvy street too but not necessarily to the literal extremes RM take things to .

If you do draft a resignation letter you must set out the behaviour which has made it impossible for you to continue your duties and use a phrase like " I consider in the circumstances , that RM has constructively dismissed me .

It'll also put RM on a defensive back foot and you'd be free to persue a claim .

On NO account must you write , " I therefore , resign , that will only confuse matters

They won't like people telling tales out of class outside the PO & won't like coming under scrutiny - they've been notoriously defensive and secretive for years , even more so now - hence the amount of money they throw at solicitors & barristers to make things " look " straight " " .

[julianhmltn]

Depends who you are ? In the office i work one person has had at least 5 RTU !!!!

[norbert]

Depends who you are ? In the office i work one person has had at least 5 RTU !!!!

must have been protected by the DDA acts ? and /or they've botched things somehow or some way + they might see that person as a loose canon and want things kept down . That's my experience .

Some people are just lucky & have had charmed lives . With another union , some people could paper their walls with charge sheets . That did stop - some " fireproof " lazy reps found that out .


RM can get round this by making things difficult or getting ATOS to stitch someone up as a "malingerer" trying to work his ticket & hope they'll resign

[Sci_Dog]

Thanks for all the comments guys and girls.

Much appreciated as always.

I think were all in agreement that I can be dismissed because of a conduct issue even if I'm off sick with stress relating to the conduct case, office politics and an incompetent, incapable and bullying manager.

I have asked the Union for their 100% totally honest opinion on the whole situation. Their view is the decision on Thursday is 50/50. If it goes against me then I have been told that I have a 'very strong case' for the appeal and whatever procedures follow. Whatever they may be. If more senior Union men are to get involved I have been told they will 'rip the case apart'. I would have prefered the case to have been ripped apart before now. Anyways can't change where I'm at now.

If I didn't didn't have a hope in hell of beating Royal Mail's corruptive system one way or the other I would like to think my Union Rep would tell me this. Yes? No?

If the worse happens on Thursday then I guess I'm in for the long haul.....appeals? Tribunals? etc etc. Whatever it takes. This is totally, totally new territory for me. I wouldn't be looking forward to it one bit but in saying that I am 100% up for the fight. I believe I can and will beat Royal Mail in the long run. Obviously I would rather not have to go the long route.

Basically this is the situation I am in-

I have almost 10 years service done with Royal Mail. In all those 10 years I have NEVER had any long term sick or my conduct called into question.....until now. Since April of this year a bullying, incompetent and incapable manager has managed to put 2 serious conduct cases against me. Firstly he could have 90% of the office charged with the same offences. He choose me. With the first case I met them halfway and on the basis that the rest of the office was going to be challenged on their performance and efficiency. This didn't materialiase. From April until September no one was challenged about their performance or efficiency. As I said they could have 90% of the office not meeting their standards on any day. I asked my local Assistant DOM a few times when were other people going to be challenged and the response I got was 'soon'. Surprise, surprise there was a new conduct case against someone! That someone being me and a conduct case with more holes than a tramps sock! Not a great place to be troops. Not a great place at all. I then talk to the Union Rep who said they'll deal with it at local level. Nope, up the line it went to a senior manager. I then inquire about filing a victimisation case in against the manager and was informed it would be of more benefit to file it after the outcome of the conduct case. Great! Absolutely f**king great. I have a manager victimising me and I can't do anything about it until I get the outcome of the conduct case (which could be my dismissal!) pursued by the bullying manager! Absolutely laughable! After I heard that I really couldn't take anymore. My doctor signed me off with stress and told me my anxiety levels are sky high. ATOS also have told me that I can't return to work until I get the outcome of the conduct case. If it goes against me then obviously I have no job to go back to. If I still have a job ATOS have told me I can't return until the problems with the manager are sorted one way or the other. So here I am now......in my 8th week off with stress and waiting for the outcome of the conduct case on Thursday morning at 9am.

Welcome to Sci_Dog's world.

[coxie]

I would file a grievence case now if you feel that strongly about it, a union rep cant refuse you that right but only advise you. This could work in your favour in an appeal if you do get dismissed if you claim it was all bullying and harrassment.

May I ask how they are having you for wilfull delay as you said in an earlier post.

[wranglered]

I would file a grievence case now if you feel that strongly about it, a union rep cant refuse you that right but only advise you. This could work in your favour in an appeal if you do get dismissed if you claim it was all bullying and harrassment.

May I ask how they are having you for wilfull delay as you said in an earlier post.

coxie is bang on..don't let union reps talk you out of filing out grievances....it is important to protect your rights...