fact finding interveiw

[mailsort6]

If you were at home did the manager actually knock on your door and see you in person? If they did not they have no evidence and as the manager actually shown you the photographs these could have been taken at anytime. Posties that are being followed has management at anytime told you that you are being watched in Work Time and Learning and Listening, what they are doing could be illegal refer to the Protection from Harassment Act 1997

[norbert]

If you were at home did the manager actually knock on your door and see you in person? If they did not they have no evidence and as the manager actually shown you the photographs these could have been taken at anytime. Posties that are being followed has management at anytime told you that you are being watched in Work Time and Learning and Listening, what they are doing could be illegal refer to the Protection from Harassment Act 1997

If they've took pictures there will be EXIF data on the original files from the camera's memory card that always stays with the picture if you will , which will show exactly when the shutter was pressed and more . The other issue is that you can set some Digital Camera's to put the time and date on the pictures .

If they've deleted the images from the memory card , it's possible to get them back as well .

You can ask for the original JPEG's , there might be a Data Protection Act issue ? - I think ? legally you have to prove that a picture hasn't been Photoshopped too .

Allegedly RM came unstuck with falsified data on CD rom's on Burslem reps / ex reps at a hearing and one was allegedly accused of inciting a strike on his day off .

I've seen all this before , all this spying is to create a culture of fear to soften people up for Privatization , union bashing in short . We'd a case when a manager went round out with his camcorder when on AL , the union saved somebody's job by saying the evidence was inadmissible . They got the guy again and sacked him , some people never learn ! .

If managers / supervisors want to be The Stasis ( which is ironic as it proves you can be so way out - you meet the other side round the back , and always have to have a " enemy " that is all in the wrong ) do it properly , otherwise they're entering a minefield and will end up looking like a bunch of amateurs that have watched too much Telly - but more fool them .

http://www.snapfiles.com/get/exifreader.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.takenet.or.jp/~ryuuji/miniso ... d/english/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[antcpfc]

they know what time i fisihed but they dont know what time i started as some days i went early an that was cleared with the manager when i went back he said it wasnt an issue but why suspend one of us an not both

Not just anyone can follow you around.There are laws in place withn strict guidelines.Our manager was stakeing out peoples houses until threatened with these laws.
http://security.homeoffice.gov.uk/ripa/about-ripa/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Taking photos is a big no -no

[norbert]

they know what time i fisihed but they dont know what time i started as some days i went early an that was cleared with the manager when i went back he said it wasnt an issue but why suspend one of us an not both

Not just anyone can follow you around.There are laws in place withn strict guidelines.Our manager was stakeing out peoples houses until threatened with these laws.
http://security.homeoffice.gov.uk/ripa/about-ripa/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Taking photos is a big no -no

Stupid B***ers that have watched too many films & poor " leadership " from those cracking the whip - PC Plod and his mate PCSO Blunkett can be a bit overzealous and heavy handed with Photographers - Prevention of Terrorism Act .There's also " potential breach of the peace " in some areas .

We wouldn't like to see rogue managers stripped naked in Police Stations with jump leads attached to their bollocks wired up to a car battery whilst " assisting with enquires " would we now

Cue DGP1 & Dvbuk 55

[sharonbar]

my argumenent is why suspended me an not the other guy hes got 21years service where ive only 6years hes still working will the desition be made tommorow if they are gettin rid of me

[norbert]

my argumenent is why suspended me an not the other guy hes got 21years service where ive only 6years hes still working will the desition be made tommorow if they are gettin rid of me

it does stink like Fleetwood , you'd expect RM to be keener on getting rid of the old timer - take half his pension back etc , Tribunals take a dim view of inconsistency apparently - ( The bit about somebody accused of a similar offence is " interesting " - it MAY be arguable that RM did not follow their own procedure - this is what Tribunals are chiefly concerned with ) .

You have to fight as dirty as RM do , it's obviously not the Queensberry Rules , the stakes are higher , the relatively benign managers are long gone from this vicious and underhand system .

[curiousgeorge]

Remember, you dont have to prove you are innocent. They have to prove you are guilty beyond any doubt.

Actually, RM don't have to prove your are guilty beyound any doubt, they just have to demonstrate a reasonable belief. It isn't a court of law. It's called the balance of probability

[TrueBlueTerrier]

This looks like a good site for learning about your rights as a worker, simple and straight forward http://www.workingrights.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lincox]

I think any self respecting industrial tribunal will be looking for more than a balance of probability

[norbert]

I think any self respecting industrial tribunal will be looking for more than a balance of probability

I'm told it's less than a criminal court i.e. Beyond all reasonable doubt - the standard of proof is a lesser one and that's where RM apparently come unstuck because of their judgmental and black and white view of matters .

Apparently if a case is a vexed one , i.e. one side berating one side and the other one swearing black is white they can go on the balance of probabilities ?

It gets complicated because of precedents set in previous cases and complicated employment law . If RM's legal people find just one thing wrong they have no qualms about going to High Court which could be very expensive for the CWU .

The crux of the matter is Did RM follow their own procedure and did they act reasonably .

It's a myth about a panel dispensing common sense and wisdom , the law can be frequently an ass and it's not necessarily about right and wrong , morals & ethics .

[Lincox]

You may be right, but I have a brother, who until he died this year, was a member of the panel who made decisions at employment tribunals. Prior to this he was an Executive Personnel Manager and represented his company at tribunals where employees had taken them to a tribunal, and therefore had seen from both angles. He always used to say that unless a company had a water tight case, they could be made to look stupid and could be extremely costly for the company, so my advice if you feel you have been unfairly treated is to go for tribunal even if the Union will not support the case. If you stand up and give an honest opinion of how you see the injustices you have been subjected to, these panelists are very professional people and can tell where the honesty is coming from. In many cases company,s will want to come to a financial arrangement with you before tribunal, so hold your head up high and go for it.

[norbert]

You may be right, but I have a brother, who until he died this year, was a member of the panel who made decisions at employment tribunals. Prior to this he was an Executive Personnel Manager and represented his company at tribunals where employees had taken them to a tribunal, and therefore had seen from both angles. He always used to say that unless a company had a water tight case, they could be made to look stupid and could be extremely costly for the company, so my advice if you feel you have been unfairly treated is to go for tribunal even if the Union will not support the case. If you stand up and give an honest opinion of how you see the injustices you have been subjected to, these panelists are very professional people and can tell where the honesty is coming from. In many cases company,s will want to come to a financial arrangement with you before tribunal, so hold your head up high and go for it.

I've heard stories about offers from RM solicitors to drop tribunals , they start at £500 , then it goes up to £1000 , they've been known to go to £1500 - 2000 if the press have been tipped off .

However a settlement doesn't clear any one of wrong doing and could be construed as a form of bullying .

[Lincox]

I would not sell myself off for that sort of money. I would rather have my day in the tribunal and let them decide what the damages are, if there are any to be awarded.

[norbert]

I would not sell myself off for that sort of money. I would rather have my day in the tribunal and let them decide what the damages are, if there are any to be awarded.

RM solicitors will ask people to drop tribunals " as you're a good lad " - the " good lad " that RM were only too keen to get through the door .

They're only concerned about possible negative publicity as you have said and the cost of tribunals , earns brownie points - it begs the question why do RM have to throw so much money at Tribunal actions in the first place ?

[sharonbar]

i am gonna take them for victimation its not far the way im being treat his conduct interview notes are wrong again so he cant keep making things up