ROYAL MAIL DISPUTE: LEAKED ROYAL MAIL STRATEGY DOCUMENT

[baldrick]

So here's a question: I heard that the Union would only agree to arbitration with ACAS involvement if the outcome wasn't binding, hence no point in starting it. Is that true?

So where exactly did you hear that? I haven't seen anything to that effect.

I can't remember a single example of when an all-out strike has had a result in favour of the workers who were striking (miners and car workers being obvious examples) and didn't end in tears for customers and staff only. Feel free to give me some examples if I'm wrong.

An all out strike is not being proposed as far as I know. Of course some strikes are successful in what they set out to achieve, some aren't, and probably most end in some sort of compromise.

How can you possibly expect this action to further your cause? Doesn't it just lose big customers who potentially will never come back?

What other choice do we have if management won't negotiate?
Private courier companies have already said they will only be able to handle a small proportion of the work we do.
And most of the private mail companies use Royal Mail to do the last mile delivery.

[BELIAL]

Kill the Union, Longer Saturdays and D2D Payment ending and monthly pay for phase 4. The future's bright

It it was not about pay it is now. Not paying for D2Ds that's £25 - £30 a week for me.

This really is dynamite. If the shareholder is aware of and supports the plans laid out in this document,the implications are massive. Even if govt. approval tacit or otherwise cannot be proven ,it is still very dangerous stuff.
The legal ramifications are shocking. If unchallenged it will mean that contracts of employment have no legal status and are worthless. In essence this is an employer detailing how they plan to tear up your contract of employment without agreement. This will have major consequences for all public and private sector employees . It also calls into question the entire basis of contract law in general, interesting.
I do hope copies of this document have been forwarded to the leadership of other public sector unions .
I think Liberty might be quite interested in it .
Still a shockingly bad power point presentation all in all,not very professional ,should've stuck to bullet points and talked around them ,far to detailed and cluttered. Somebody is trying to micro manage this dispute

[norbert]

So here's a question: I heard that the Union would only agree to arbitration with ACAS involvement if the outcome wasn't binding, hence no point in starting it. Is that true? -

Nope - Billy was on Sky and did not mention any preconditions in fact I'd be surprised if there were any as all we have been asking for all along is 3rd party involvement.

I can't remember a single example of when an all-out strike has had a result in favour of the workers who were striking (miners and car workers being obvious examples) and didn't end in tears for customers and staff only. Feel free to give me some examples if I'm wrong

. - Your not wrong but we not after winning anything all we want basically is a fair days pay for a fairs day work and to be treated fairly and without fear of intimidation - again why we are asking for a 3rd party to measure this so that RM get the same. BTW its not an all out strike - its 2 different strikes on 2 days 1 following the other but posties only striking for 24 hours. Its likely to stay that way so mail will move it will just slow down, we are not striking to damage business and an all out would probably do that. (My opinion only of course)

Surely 'last resort, nothing else has worked' doesn't mean 'right thing to do and it'll get the result we want'?

So one set or workers has to accept what they as bullying and harassment so that others including RM can continue to make profits - at what point does Businesses right to make profit over ride Workers rights. There is always only so far that people will go before they say No and No further - we have reached that and the only 3 options available are:

1. Quit - No Dole etc for a minimum of 6 weeks and living on state benefits to survive - loss of potential customers to small businesses and a greater tax burden for those still working or employing.
2. Accept all the changes whatever they suggest even though we believe it will worsen the service and lead to higher prices in the long run, and to the detriment of our own wages and terms and conditions. Less wages means less money in the system to buy from small businesses.
3. Do our best to get the changes from within, and if that fails carry out legal action sanctioned by a democratic vote.

No 3 for me please and for you in the long run I hope as well. If this is sorted amicably we might not even have to go on strike this week.

And can't you set up some kind of private forum where you can let off steam rather than it being so public as it is here?

The Union had one and so did Royal Mail - both closed them down for reasons unknown. As an unofficial forum there is no way we can limit it to just members of the Union and those working for Royal Mail and anyway we would not be able to communicate with those willing to listen if it was a totally private forum.

Anyway I'm sure your members have had enough of me, thanks again
Connie

--- and I am sure the reverse is the same. I am an old romantic where discussion and exchange of views is concerned. I would rather people on opposing sides argue with conviction and politeness rather than passion and invective - your last post is a fine example and I wish some on my side of the fence would learn to debate rather than name call.

I apologize for the cynicism , suspicion and skepticism towards Customer Connie , but you always do get justified paranoia in a run up to Privatization ,

RM have been traditionally very secretive , autocratic and regarded itself as above the law and defensive & now operates in a very underhand manner due to all the Politics and the 70's Car Factory style of management .

The nicest thing you can say about Hellmail that it's a spiked Yellow news site and it hasn't done itself any favours in a few instances .

That's the problem - Trust , Confidence , Leadership etc - hence the strikes .

[baldrick]

I think you are right to be cynical, suspicious and sceptical, Norbert.
There does seem to be an influx of people onto rmc who claim to be customers, posties/opgs,
or wives who are spouting anti-union propaganda based on something they claim to have heard.
Happened in 2007 too.

[norbert]

I think you are right to be cynical, suspicious and sceptical, Norbert.
There does seem to be an influx of people onto rmc who claim to be customers, posties/opgs,
or wives who are spouting anti-union propaganda based on something they claim to have heard.
Happened in 2007 too.

she did sound bitterly anti - union , though it was probably the Union who got her T&C's when in that unionized workplace . It never fails to make me laugh all these Tories in the public sector and they think everybody has to be like them .

The best one was the Hellmail article with " quotes " from the Bristol 4 admitting their "guilt" - amazing how that article got rewritten .

I'd some sympathy for the Ebay worker , it is very hard work for the little you do make . The alternative with New Labour's New Deal / Workfare is very grim , I did see those programmes on a4e - however some of the articles are just a bit too well written for supposed " ordinary Joe's " - hence Postman's point about " pseudo amateur journalism " and not taking the bait .

http://newdealscandal.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://watchinga4e.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

May be of future use - the way RM is going ?

[baldrick]

Well they seem to be taking an evening off tonight.

[norbert]

Well they seem to be taking an evening off tonight.

"funny" that

[baldrick]

Well they seem to be taking an evening off tonight.

"funny" that

Waiting for their new characters/scripts?

[norbert]

Well they seem to be taking an evening off tonight.

"funny" that

Waiting for their new characters/scripts?

it's all a bit by numbers : - you're getting the same salient points - the " You're standing outside in the freezing rain , so & so from the Union doesn't give a sh** about you in their fancy cars and posh hotels " - I remember reading those words in " The Sport " " newspaper " in ghost written article for Bernard Manning at a time there was train strikes

" the political risk of losing support " was a point on that Amateurish Power Point Presentation .

[Ex RM Manager]

Super Senior Management have often seen themselves above the law and at best, have a extremely distant relationship with the self-appointed rules and legislation of their own business and bend and twist their own rules to maximise their own bullying tactics.

Sadly, the change that is coming cannot be not halted changed or in any way minimised by the strike action. I wish it could. But the RM Senior Management steamroller everyone and everything. Including their own who dissent. These will be ugly times with ruthless measures.

[BELIAL]

Super Senior Management have often seen themselves above the law and at best, have a extremely distant relationship with the self-appointed rules and legislation of their own business and bend and twist their own rules to maximise their own bullying tactics.

Sadly, the change that is coming cannot be not halted changed or in any way minimised by the strike action. I wish it could. But the RM Senior Management steamroller everyone and everything. Including their own who dissent. These will be ugly times with ruthless measures.

No worse than the average Weds.;Thurs.;Fri. and Sat in most DO's then

[norbert]

Super Senior Management have often seen themselves above the law and at best, have a extremely distant relationship with the self-appointed rules and legislation of their own business and bend and twist their own rules to maximise their own bullying tactics.

Sadly, the change that is coming cannot be not halted changed or in any way minimised by the strike action. I wish it could. But the RM Senior Management steamroller everyone and everything. Including their own who dissent. These will be ugly times with ruthless measures.

There was a plant on another forum saying " We got Mark Higson in as the Union was so " obstructive " " - Higson's from the Building Trade , true blue Tory to the bone - there's another RM Director that had 478 tribunals against him whilst at Bombardier Shorts NI . ROMEC staff had problems with a Chairman from the Building Trade who refused to meet the CWU , RM were more the " sleeping partner " .

There's people in the TUC that have been there and bought the T - Shirt with IA & privatization who say the RM system is vicious . Bryden is a more conservative operator than Allan Leighton and his " new wave " " management style but he has a reputation elsewhere .

The interesting bit in the awful RM PP is " losing political support "

[Wessex]

"I can't remember a single example of when an all-out strike has had a result in favour of the workers who were striking (miners and car workers being obvious examples) and didn't end in tears"

Maybe before your time Customer Connie but whenever anybody mentions what did a Union ever achieve I always like to think about Solidarnosc.

[outandabout]

On and on ,same old scripted spiel .

document comes out showing RM in a very bad light , then all these rabid tories come out of the woodwork sounding like a Daily Express editorial to disrupt things . Interesting

the hundreds of unemployed drivers sounds like the Thatcher / McGregor strategy - " Recruit non - union drivers " - it's 2009 not the 80's anymore

Yeh ,much the same as 2007 but with a twist. Still doing the same old "you're doomed" "union is ripping you off" stuff but they refined the approach a bit to exploit the free speech/fairplay loophole to slip in under the radar. Funny how this time, instead of being loyal union members who have all seen the light, they are now all sorely disappointed customers who are immune from criticism even though they can spout the management handbook chapter and verse
You gotta admire their talent for spotting and exploiting a weakness.

So today it's announced that 30,000 additional staff have been recruited early to deal with post 'in between strikes' to avoid the backlog, plus I'd already read about the warehouse hiring and additional drivers in the week. I'm not 'management on my laptop', I'm not an 'insider', I'm not a 'Tory' etc etc... the utter arrogance on this forum will be your downfall because you are NOT LISTENING. This is a public forum, any member of the public can come on here, register and post, just like I did. And I'd been lurking on my husband's profile before which is why I only registered a few minutes before my post on Friday night - so you're wrong there too.

Anyone that comes on this forum with an opinion other than 'management are scum, union are right and we're going to fight them and win' are shot down in flames. Well that's up to you obviously. But you are wrong, and the few lone voices who dare to speak and say 'maybe this is a trap and we're in trouble' are going to be proven right.

For your information I'm a 32 year old woman with 3 kids who (apparently) has nothing better to do with her life but to read all the information in the public domain, of which there is masses. I've never been a manager in Royal Mail, or anywhere else for that matter. I didn't need to be an insider to find out any of this stuff. Anyone who's worked for a large unionised organisation as I did once (NOT Royal Mail) knows that if you're trouble and/or a striker you're blacklisted and likely to lose your job in the next round of redundancies if management are clever enough to make it happen - any fool like me can work that out, I don't need to have inside information. If you stopped being so self-obsessed and punchdrunk on the all the macho militant rubbish flying around you might make the time to go to any quality newspaper's website today, read the story about Royal Mail and read what people are saying. None of its any different to what I've said.

I make crafts in my spare time and sell them by post, which is why this strike is likely to affect me more than it would otherwise and why I'm hoping it will get sorted out. Yes I know, you don't care about me. In fact no-one here wants to listen so I'll stop wasting my time - you're behaving just children who put their hands over their ears and shout 'la la la' when there's something you they want to hear. If Nelson Mandela was brought in to mediate you'd call him a useless tosser. No wonder your management are sidelining you and your union.

Good luck to you all, you are going to need it and my sympathy has gone. I will not be posting on here again.

Thats fine BUT you have not got a clue what goes on in the delivery offices and mail centres, if you worked in deliverys and you were told, (not asked) to take on extra work for nothing, ie working over 8 hours for nothing i think you would agree with us, would you work for nothing.....I dont think so......and thats just scratching the surface.... tell you what... apply or a job in Royal Fail and you will soon change your mind oh and by the way youll have no sick pay, not able to contribute to the pension fund or a year.......and you might get a 10 hour contract....if you lucky.....call that modernisation!

When you say asked to take on extra work for nothing, do you mean by that to work your full contracted hours for no additional pay, where previously if you worked quickly you could finish early?

If thats the case, its hardly being asked to do work for nothing.

Its no different to workers in the private sector whose similar perks were eroded to nothing in the eighties and nineties.... cant really see why royal mail workers expect to be a special case.

Please feel free to explain if and where I have got this wrong.

[norbert]

it's enforced unpaid overtime and the threats of being suspended for supposedly taking unofficial Industrial Action if staff don't cut corners , work in a dangerous manner , come in early unpaid , threats of willful & intentional delay to the Queen's mail if they don't put in unpaid overtime .

You saw the press coverage over the unworkable walk speeds of 4 mph at ALL times - the sackings for people failing to keep up with such unrealistic targets - it's just got a lot worse

.You do know RM suspended a seriously ill man that was on a kidney diayalsis machine every night on Willful delay in Macclesfield . His " managers " closed ranks and swore blind that he didn't tell them he was overloaded and would not be able to complete in time .

RM spend a fortune on solicitors and barristers in Industrial Tribunals to frustrate and obstruct , their managers spend more time in court than some habitual criminals . At one time , that was a no , no with staff and the Union as it brought the service into disrepute .

Computer programmes like Pegasus that have been fiddled and corrupted , time and motion programmes that are unrealistic and unworkable are used to suspend people on trumped up charges that would be laughed out of any Industrial Tribunal . Endless bullying and intimidation from lazy ex postmen in charge with little or no training , no people or motivational skills .

Graduates with poor degrees in " soft " subjects quoting chapter and verse from flawed computer programmes with little experience of the wide world beyond working behind or propping up a bar to grown men that have done the job for years and know the job inside out .

Wagons being filled with mail and taken out for a spin during audits , Managers were only suspended when a acting manager shopped them to the papers . Numerous fiddles and a culture of dishonesty .

The devil is in the detail , RM must be most institutionally dishonest and corrupt to the core firm that I've had the misfortune to work for .

Too many armchair experts who know SFA about RM pontificating - is it any surprise that you get such hostility and suspicion ? -