Everyone Should Read This:Phase 3

[norbert]

Hi all

I know the answer to this one. If you refuse to lapse walks and just take your own walk out royalmail can refuse to pay you and your own duty is done on a voluntary basis. This is because a business can refuse to pay for a part contract or agreement. Your manager however cannot tell you to go home so you either lapse the walk or risk not being paid. If you go home cos your not being paid this is classed as unoffical strike action and you can get sacked if you don't get sacked then you come back on royalmails terms. s**t isn't it, your best bet is to work the hours your being paid. I am a postie and not a manager but I looked into the legal side of this as I too thought they couldn't refuse to pay you.

the word on Postman Fluffy is that some posties are deliberately spinning rounds out to avoid lapsing so this heavy handed stuff is "necessary" to stop it - please don't shoot the messenger !

[BELIAL]

Hi all

I know the answer to this one. If you refuse to lapse walks and just take your own walk out royalmail can refuse to pay you and your own duty is done on a voluntary basis. This is because a business can refuse to pay for a part contract or agreement. Your manager however cannot tell you to go home so you either lapse the walk or risk not being paid. If you go home cos your not being paid this is classed as unoffical strike action and you can get sacked if you don't get sacked then you come back on royalmails terms. s**t isn't it, your best bet is to work the hours your being paid. I am a postie and not a manager but I looked into the legal side of this as I too thought they couldn't refuse to pay you.

the word on Postman Fluffy is that some posties are deliberately spinning rounds out to avoid lapsing so this heavy handed stuff is "necessary" to stop it - please don't shoot the messenger !

Or maybe some posties ain't coming in 2hrs, early for nothing, using their cars on delivery, getting unsecure drop bags, compromising the security of the mail, stepping,churning, failing to connect with missort runs , connecting but failing to deliver,carding whilst still in the office ,signing for,failing to get signatures, etc etc. Funniest of all is the golden boys who run round, good old company faithfulls. If you add up their sick time, knees ,backs ,broken ankles then they turn out to be twice as expensive as the old sids

[andy2007]

You're spot on there Belial. There was one Postie, who when challenged about these statements. Admitted that he uses his car. He CLAIMS to have done the Deliveries without his car, and still finished before his time. But it's more convenient for him to continue using it.

There's even one person, who claims to have covered several Walks in Burslem. And that they're easy ones. What do you reckon the odds are, that he used his car, and carried too much weight?

Having said that. There are a growing (but still quite small so far) band of Posties. Who were originally planning to vote No. Who are now going to vote Yes. And are even helping to convince others to do the same. Including one, who'd previously considered crossing the lines. So it's not all bad news.

[OnAFlyer]

You're spot on there Belial. There was one Postie, who when challenged about these statements. Admitted that he uses his car. He CLAIMS to have done the Deliveries without his car, and still finished before his time. But it's more convenient for him to continue using it.

There's even one person, who claims to have covered several Walks in Burslem. And that they're easy ones. What do you reckon the odds are, that he used his car, and carried too much weight?

Having said that. There are a growing (but still quite small so far) band of Posties. Who were originally planning to vote No. Who are now going to vote Yes. And are even helping to convince others to do the same. Including one, who'd previously considered crossing the lines. So it's not all bad news.

Hi Andy

Why didn't you call me a liar on PC instead of here where I wasn't previously a member? I did walks for 5 years without a car, and now when it's in for a service, work done etc I catch the bus and have no problems completing BEFORE my time including collapsing a 10th of a delivery.

I've said it before and i'll say it again.

I KNOW there are some offices that are having serious problems with deliveries.

I also KNOW that in my own office, where we have had a Georoute revision (result - NO deliveries were removed and my own delivery came out at 3hr 25m). there are posties that are saying they don't have time to collapse - yet their walks take WELL under 3.5hrs. Using a car (which most of them do) makes them 2- 30 - 2hrs 45, yet they say they can't collapse?

That's why I know people are doing it, because it's happening in my own office on deliveries I know well! My cover man has finished on my delivery at 5.15pm before - that is totally ridiculous and if he worked for me personally i'd sack him for being incompetent.

Let's be honest here. The vast Majority of posties do a good, efficient job - but there are quite a few that just aren't good enough. When the walks were dead easy and the job a complete joke they could get away with it, but now we are being given more work the useless ones are being found out. The thing is they generally don't know they're useless and actually wonder why others finish hours before them.

the word on Postman Fluffy is that some posties are deliberately spinning rounds out to avoid lapsing so this heavy handed stuff is "necessary" to stop it - please don't shoot the messenger!

The very amusing thing about that is the first post in this thread proves it - telling posties to do the job EXACTLY by the book to avoid collapsing, yet how many did the job like that before?

This post won't be popular, because the truth often isn't.

I've never crossed a picket line before, but this time I wil be - whilst good posties are being led by morons who are asking for more pay for less hours in the middle of a recession where thousands of people are losing their jobs or taking pay cuts. Then saying that striking will help job security.

Think about those 2 statements above, how utterly stupid they are, and that both have come from the CWU as reasons to strike.

It's comedy gold.

[genesis]

Lets get this right, you think postmen/women should use their cars to deliver parts of other walks?
we all know the arguments for using cars ,but to spend your own money on doing other walks , why should they?
The geo route in our office takes the deliveries over 4 hours and its certainly not an accurate tool,you seem to infer the best deliverers are the ones who finish early,where common sense says its for the ones who do it properly.

[OnAFlyer]

Lets get this right, you think postmen/women should use their cars to deliver parts of other walks?
we all know the arguments for using cars ,but to spend your own money on doing other walks , why should they?
The geo route in our office takes the deliveries over 4 hours and its certainly not an accurate tool,you seem to infer the best deliverers are the ones who finish early,where common sense says its for the ones who do it properly.

Try reading the post properly - where did I say anyone should use their cars?

I did walks for 5 years without a car, and now when it's in for a service, work done etc I catch the bus and have no problems completing BEFORE my time including collapsing a 10th of a delivery.

there are posties that are saying they don't have time to collapse - yet their walks take WELL under 3.5hrs. Using a car (which most of them do) makes them 2- 30 - 2hrs 45, yet they say they can't collapse?

What i'm saying is that some posties in my office have walks which take less than 3.5hrs, they also use cars which cuts them down even more and they are saying they can't collapse. Even without the car there is enough time on most days, this summer has been very light apart from the odd day.

There are other guys that don't have cars, do worse deliveries, just get on with it and finish within their time.

There's no such thing as 'best' posties, as everyone likes to do the job their way. There are however very definitely useless and slow ones. Taking 6 and 7 hours for a delivery is a joke, no delivery should ever take anyone that.

IMO RM aren't too far off getting it right. I would make all walks 3.5ish hrs, and everyone can do the job their way - however if you go over you don't get paid OT because there's no need to go over, 40hrs is enough on an average week. If anyone thinks their walk is too long they could have it tested, however should they do the job exactly by the book when tested then they should be watched after that to see if they do it every day. If not then whatever was removed gets put back on.

No shirkers, nobody doing more work than the next person, just enough work for the average postie to work 40hrs. If you're fast you make time, if you work slowly that's your choice but you don't get paid any more for it.

[DGP1]

IMO RM aren't too far off getting it right. I would make all walks 3.5ish hrs, and everyone can do the job their way

What about the 6 hour deliveries that some in my office have got since Pegesus, I wish the duties where only 3.5 hours.

[OnAFlyer]

IMO RM aren't too far off getting it right. I would make all walks 3.5ish hrs, and everyone can do the job their way

What about the 6 hour deliveries that some in my office have got since Pegesus, I wish the duties where only 3.5 hours.

Have they been tested?

[DGP1]

IMO RM aren't too far off getting it right. I would make all walks 3.5ish hrs, and everyone can do the job their way

What about the 6 hour deliveries that some in my office have got since Pegesus, I wish the duties where only 3.5 hours.

Have they been tested?

No, they won't test them, we've asked and asked but they won't change them and this is the reason why my office will be striking.

[stokes11eg]

Spot on--many walks are, and have been for some time, way over this mythical 3.5 hours----and that is not including the lapsed parts.And testing is not always the answer--unless it is done by an outside body. R/M as with every thing, shall we say 'cheat' when it comes to walk testing.

[andy2007]

For those of you, who haven't seen this on PMC. Here are the Posts that I was referring to:
Originally Posted by [other Member name removed]
Well doing nothing is not an option...the laws of the free market economy will have its way...that is the company will knock up a huge loss if current trends continue. Then you will see job losses by the truck load..No one is going to bail us out..Mandy and the EEC will see to that.

Keywords..shipbuilding , coal ,steel, British leyland
[End of quote]

Yet still people don't look at it that way, and think the way to protect jobs is to refuse to do any extra work as often as possible, so that we all do the job properly and RM goes away and doesn't make any cuts.

Rubbish.

You only have to read the posts from members on here who seem to revel in saying 'no' when asked to do a bit of collapsing, to know that. Yet it's people like me, who do extra without complaint who are being blamed for costing jobs and causing cuts?

People are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think that 'doing the job properly' is going to make RM go away and not ask for savings.


I have no problem with posties that work that way, but I know from watching some people in my office that there's a very fine line between doing the job properly and being deliberately obstructive (slow timing) A guy in my office making a 2hr walk last 3.5hrs for a start!

There seems to be a huge 'them and us' mentality between posties and RM management, with the CWU constantly citing managers bonuses in their literature. My opinion is 'so what'. So what if managers get big bonuses, they get a LOT more hassle and are under a lot more pressure than us.

If you really want the bonuses then go on the management scheme, go into further educaton etc and try and be one yourself. Why be jealous of what someone else is earning (because that's what it is).

Like it or not, we all work for the same company, and RM pays our wages and mortgages. We are not paid pennies, we are paid a good wage for what we do. We all need to get our heads down and work or we won't have a job to 'do properly'.

One last thing - do you think there are people out there who don't have a job, who would be willing to work harder than most posties, for less money? In what other industries is it deemed acceptable to be slow at your job yet not lose it or even get any warnings?

The answer to that is pretty obvious.

Originally Posted by andy2007
Before we go any further, I think it's important to make some distinctions here. Between those who previously used their own vehicles, did free overtime (some both before AND after their Shift). Those who continue to use their own cars, and do free overtime. And those who are being deliberately obstructive.

The first group, are often seen as being deliberately obstructive. Because they've changed their way of working, because more work was given to them.

The second group (I assume from your post, that this includes you), who're often blamed for the cuts. Because they make it possible to do more work, with less Duties.

The third group, tend to be put under emense pressure to start using their cars, and doing free overtime for free.
[End of quote]

I think you are confusing the words 'overtime' and 'extra work'. Overtime takes you over your time, if it doesn't then it's not overtime, it's work done within the 40hrs you get paid for.

So please don't carry on spouting rubbish that I am doing free overtime when i'm doing nothing of the sort, and neither is anyone else that I know of in my office.

I remember the days of doing lots of overtime and still getting done within my normal hours - those days have gone and people need to realise it.

If I don't use my car I can still collapse most days and make time. That's not running, just working hard to get the job done. I haven't got an easy delivery, when I picked my duty I was 60th out of 100-odd to pick, also the Pegasus review we had said it was up to length.

Virtually every other walk in my office is the same, most can collapse several times a week and still get done within time. I'm assuming my office isn't a one off, unless mysteriously we all have easy walks which Pegasus says are up to length.

People keep saying they are doing the job by the book, but when did that start? How many people who used to get finished early now purposely make sure their walk lasts longer so they don't have to do any extra?

[andy2007]

You're spot on there Belial. There was one Postie, who when challenged about these statements. Admitted that he uses his car. He CLAIMS to have done the Deliveries without his car, and still finished before his time. But it's more convenient for him to continue using it.

There's even one person, who claims to have covered several Walks in Burslem. And that they're easy ones. What do you reckon the odds are, that he used his car, and carried too much weight?

Having said that. There are a growing (but still quite small so far) band of Posties. Who were originally planning to vote No. Who are now going to vote Yes. And are even helping to convince others to do the same. Including one, who'd previously considered crossing the lines. So it's not all bad news.

Now I admit it was a little excessive for me to use this icon: And being sarcastic about his post. But when he spends so much time on there, accusing those who have stopped cutting corners, and using their cars, of being lazy. And boasts about making time, even if he doesn't use his car. Well, can anyone really blame me?

He's right, that until comparatively recently, it was normal practice. For many, to cut corners on H&S, and use their cars. And now aren't doing so. But what right does he have, to say "People are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think that 'doing the job properly' is going to make RM go away and not ask for savings.


I have no problem with posties that work that way, but I know from watching some people in my office that there's a very fine line between doing the job properly and being deliberately obstructive (slow timing) A guy in my office making a 2hr walk last 3.5hrs for a start! " To quote just one section.

And don't forget the old favourite: "One last thing - do you think there are people out there who don't have a job, who would be willing to work harder than most posties, for less money? In what other industries is it deemed acceptable to be slow at your job yet not lose it or even get any warnings?"
If someone is "going slow", or being lazy. Then they should have their Delivery tested. Why doesn't this happen?
Well to quote Mrs. T. "wrong [Member name removed]!

we now have a super template and if it goes through it goes to the walker end of

and we take specials, packets and d2d ( and election) for the starburst we take everything

some poor walking man had to take 2 golf clubs the other day cos they went through the template"".Still think that everyone who claims that it's not possible to complete in their time, without carrying too much weight or using their car is on a go-slow?
Surely you aren't accusing her of being a liar, are you?

[postiered]

for god sake what blistering summer heat we've had 3 days at the most , as for 4 hour delivery thats the norm for rurals , you comment about being a slave is a joke, you choose to be a postie just remember you are paid to work 8 hours , you dont have to rush around . I bet you have got morons who run around to make two hours a day so to watch daytime tv and use their cars . Yes the mail is falling accept that as a fact , yes the managers are bullies but the main issue is pensions, the argument is to have a £400 basic wage.

[dvbuk55]

"some poor walking man had to take 2 golf clubs the other day cos they went through the template"".

The item has to pass through the templete every way, so he would not have taken 2 golf clubs so is a correct estimation of this persons veracity.

[bertie]

I think onaflyer should change his name.

Perhaps onanotherplanet, onamphetamines, onawindup ?

ps. love this bit - 'If anyone thinks their walk is too long they could have it tested, however should they do the job exactly by the book when tested then they should be watched after that to see if they do it every day'.