Royal Mail’s new machines going to waste, says CWU

[FellChair]

They're definitely coming to my officer very soon, we're having 3 machines and 11 people to run them on a 11PM-9AM 4 day week. The closing date for applications was this week with a view to them coming in early October.

[FellChair]

Sadly, the usual ill-informed journalism sprinkled liberally with some half-truths. Pointless.

Exactly!!

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Pity we cant read the tech reports - too busy on delivery and no access to the Intranet - any chance of anyone getting it on here.

[DGP1]

They're definitely coming to my officer very soon, we're having 3 machines and 11 people to run them on a 11PM-9AM 4 day week. The closing date for applications was this week with a view to them coming in early October.

So, are these machines sitting in storage just waiting to be installed or have they not been delivered?

[FellChair]

I don't know where they are at the moment. We're getting rid of a lot of older machines to make space for the new ones so as yet they're not in the office.

[Martin Walsh]

Tman I have visted the stratford delivery office walk sequencing site , the gatwick walk sequencing site and obvioulsly the mail centres with tops 2000 and flats and I have to say I have been far from impressed.

Look the Gatwick site is a trail office along with Bristol. The problem they have is the following with regards to walk sequencing.

60% of the work clears a mail centre about midnight made up of 2nd class mailsort and press stream this can go through the walk sequencing no problems and be ready for about 0500 in a delivery office. The problem comes with the remaining 40% of work which does not clear the mail centre workplan till 4 40 in the morning including distant and 1st class.

Royal Mail have only one machine operator for each walk sequencing machine as that was in the business case, this is the real problem because while the machines are accurate and fast the operator has to run the work through 3 times and has to clear the machines down which takes more time then they had orginally planned for. So the offices which are furthest away from Gatwick like Eastbourne do not get their 2nd batch (40% )until after 10 in the morning.

Royal Mail`s business case does not allow the 60% to be thrown up prior to the 40% arriving as that does not achieve the required savings, nor can they put two operators on the machine because that then eats into the required savings so in short they are in a mess.

Plus you still have to then insert your packets and large flats into delivery frames as unlike in Holland all of our walk sequence mail will be sorted to delivery frames and not bench merged. Again this cannot be done until all the letters have been walk sequenced and this will have a big effect on start times and full time duties as well.

So once again Royal Mail have studied these machines in another country, Holland in this case, without recognising that in Holland flats and packets are not used in delivery offices and are done by other means and that Holland is roughly the size of the south east of England and has a far smaller density of abodes than we do in this country or the rest of the UK.

Of course Royal Mail are trying to get around these issues by adopting one outward plan per mail centre and by Network 2009 but can you really suggest to me that Royal Mail will improve the service to the customer by not clearing the second batch of mail until after 10 in the morning. Especially as firms do currently get a delivery from 0900 now.

Modernisation was meant to be about improving services to the customer not making them worse and then asking firms to pay for a service which they currently get as part of the USO.

[norbert]

Tman I have visted the stratford delivery office walk sequencing site , the gatwick walk sequencing site and obvioulsly the mail centres with tops 2000 and flats and I have to say I have been far from impressed.

Look the Gatwick site is a trail office along with Bristol. The problem they have is the following with regards to walk sequencing.

60% of the work clears a mail centre about midnight made up of 2nd class mailsort and press stream this can go through the walk sequencing no problems and be ready for about 0500 in a delivery office. The problem comes with the remaining 40% of work which does not clear the mail centre workplan till 4 40 in the morning including distant and 1st class.

Royal Mail have only one machine operator for each walk sequencing machine as that was in the business case, this is the real problem because while the machines are accurate and fast the operator has to run the work through 3 times and has to clear the machines down which takes more time then they had orginally planned for. So the offices which are furthest away from Gatwick like Eastbourne do not get their 2nd batch (40% )until after 10 in the morning.

Royal Mail`s business case does not allow the 60% to be thrown up prior to the 40% arriving as that does not achieve the required savings, nor can they put two operators on the machine because that then eats into the required savings so in short they are in a mess.



Plus you still have to then insert your packets and large flats into delivery frames as unlike in Holland all of our walk sequence mail will be sorted to delivery frames and not bench merged. Again this cannot be done until all the letters have been walk sequenced and this will have a big effect on start times and full time duties as well.

So once again Royal Mail have studied these machines in another country, Holland in this case, without recognising that in Holland flats and packets are not used in delivery offices and are done by other means and that Holland is roughly the size of the south east of England and has a far smaller density of abodes than we do in this country or the rest of the UK.

Of course Royal Mail are trying to get around these issues by adopting one outward plan per mail centre and by Network 2009 but can you really suggest to me that Royal Mail will improve the service to the customer by not clearing the second batch of mail until after 10 in the morning. Especially as firms do currently get a delivery from 0900 now.

Modernisation was meant to be about improving services to the customer not making them worse and then asking firms to pay for a service which they currently get as part of the USO.

Thanks for that Dingo - the devil is obviously in the detail and the inherent flaws and contradictions in RM's policy are " interesting " . It's " interesting " that RM wanted to charge businesses for getting their mail from 0900 and then :lfo had it stopped

[andy2007]

And here we have the problems with ignoring the Union, and Front Line Staff! Instead of assessing the machines properly. They've looked at them being used elsewhere, and simply assumed that they'd work just as well here. Despite the fact that we have a different setup.

Would I be right in thinking, that this, is the reason that the CWU objected to them?

Modernisation isn't just about buying equipment for the sake of it. It's about selecting the right equipment for the job. Risk Assessing it, in conjunction with H&S Reps. Then testing it in trial areas BEFORE putting an order in for any more of them.

[Lounge Lizard]

If the Walk Sequencing Machines can't do what they were bought for, as Britain is not the same as Holland or for whatever other reason, and are gathering dust somewhere in the Midlands, then isn't there an MP somewhere who could start asking questions about them, or one of the better newspapers that could start investigating the situation to counter the Daily Mail's regular greedy-luddite-postmen-striking-for-more-money-again stories ?

[TrueBlueTerrier]

If the Walk Sequencing Machines can't do what they were bought for, as Britain is not the same as Holland or for whatever other reason, and are gathering dust somewhere in the Midlands, then isn't there an MP somewhere who could start asking questions about them, or one of the better newspapers that could start investigating the situation to counter the Daily Mail's regular greedy-luddite-postmen-striking-for-more-money-again stories ?

Lord Clarke in the House of Lords did - lets hope after the multi week holiday one of the CWU sponsored MPS does the same.

Politicians are also puzzled about plans for the equipment. During a House of Lords debate on Royal Mail, Labour’s Lord Clarke said: “I have made exhaustive inquiries but no one can tell me where these machines are.”

[norbert]

If the Walk Sequencing Machines can't do what they were bought for, as Britain is not the same as Holland or for whatever other reason, and are gathering dust somewhere in the Midlands, then isn't there an MP somewhere who could start asking questions about them, or one of the better newspapers that could start investigating the situation to counter the Daily Mail's regular greedy-luddite-postmen-striking-for-more-money-again stories ?

On Postman Fluffy managers with their master's voice breathing down their necks are saying the Dutch TNT model is being continually adapted and changed & the union are using alarmist propaganda with no basis in fact - well of course !

The Daily Mail did do a story about managers fiddling the bonus system , brilliant irony ; the CWU using a Daily Sieg Heil article as propaganda for " The Con " - as Richard Littlejohn would say - " You couldn't make it up "

[Tman]

And here we have the problems with ignoring the Union, and Front Line Staff! Instead of assessing the machines properly. They've looked at them being used elsewhere, and simply assumed that they'd work just as well here. Despite the fact that we have a different setup.

Would I be right in thinking, that this, is the reason that the CWU objected to them?

Modernisation isn't just about buying equipment for the sake of it. It's about selecting the right equipment for the job. Risk Assessing it, in conjunction with H&S Reps. Then testing it in trial areas BEFORE putting an order in for any more of them.

Andy, you're falling into the trap of assuming something is wrong then basing a point on that assumption.

As Dingo says above, the machines themselves work fine, but RM junior managers (normally posties two months before ) have a long and proud tradition of not understanding how to make the best use of automation, and that, allied to the CWU dinosaur policy of staffing operators by seniority rather than ability, is a combination guaranteed to cause problems.
Holland has a mix of mail much like ours, and may be geographically smaller, so that means that automated processes can't work here just as well as there? That's cobblers.
It's a strange phenomenon widely known as "that'll never work here " syndrome, and noticed whenever new automation goes in. Ask any posties who've walked past the new stuff on their way to the canteen about how it's all going, and the standard reply will always come back "that'll never work here mate", as if they are party to the tests and trials results...

[Phantom]

A simple answer to it all Tman is that RM have the money, they've bought the machines (we think), they haven't installed them in all offices so something is clearly wrong. All i've heard over the last few years is that these walk sorting machines are being trialled and thats it. How long does a trial period last? a month, 6 months, a year??? - I smell bullshit, now thats cobblers!

[Ahebban]

Tman ... are you seriously suggesting that RM would allow issues of 'seniority' or 'lack of automation understanding' in preventing installation and implementation of any new equipment that will ensure profit-margins are maximised given the dire monetary forecasts for RM generally, and letters specificially?

RM is under intense internal and public scrutiny to justify its current regime in reference to the modernisation programme. The longer it delays introduction of new technology weakens its argument of efficiency and modernisation needs, not strengthen it.

Whilst I do not have access to the technical data etc in respect of new technology use within RM, I have followed the RM/CWU press releases, trade papers, websites, forums etc in respect of the matter.

The conclusion that I draw thus far is that the cart is very much before the horse.

[Tman]

Ahebban"]Tman ... are you seriously suggesting that RM would allow issues of 'seniority' or 'lack of automation understanding' in preventing installation and implementation of any new equipment that will ensure profit-margins are maximised given the dire monetary forecasts for RM generally, and letters specificially

No, and I never implied it either. Read it again.

RM is under intense internal and public scrutiny to justify its current regime in reference to the modernisation programme. The longer it delays introduction of new technology weakens its argument of efficiency and modernisation needs, not strengthen it.

Maybe so, but these installation programs often ovver-run badly, and for many diverse reasons. Remember the IMP program? CFCs back in the early 90's? OCR/VCS? Need I go on? The reasons aren't always political or CWU issues.

Whilst I do not have access to the technical data etc in respect of new technology use within RM, I have followed the RM/CWU press releases, trade papers, websites, forums etc in respect of the matter.
The conclusion that I draw thus far is that the cart is very much before the horse.

Maybe your "conclusions" are based on flawed data and/or assumptions, though? There aren't always "darker forces" at work. Sometimes the reasons for "slippage" are quite mundane.....