Quick question regarding strike ballot...

[norbert]

They're not daft, you know, these youngsters.

You somehow assume that the non union members are youngsters which is a long way from the truth, some are female, some middle aged, some older than me,
the predominance is part time and that seems to be the reason for non membership, hoping for a full time contract presumably or having retired from one career do this as a part time job. It is a concern that I have brought to the attention of the Branch but there seems to be little action from that quarter - I believe complacency breeds complacency.

some good points - that's how ASDA works , middle aged women etc and RM will always try to dilute the unionized influence and yes the Union have to wake up instead of somebody coming up to a rep saying I'm on a RTU - can I join the union ?

[Carnoustie]

Simple answer join the fekin union !! if your stupid enough to sit on the fence then you have no right to a vote if you joined then you'd have that democratic right wether it yay or nay ...my opinion is if your not in the union then quite obviously you'll do any thing your lord and master 'lil ad' wants because you do not have a backbone

Right, I'm gonna get slated for this, but playing 'Devil's Advocate' for a minute ....

A strong opinion, axeman. But exactly the sort of insulting rhetoric that makes people not join the union in the first place! It's a form of bullying to insult someone who exercises their legal right to not join a union, even if the overwhelming majority of their colleagues in that workplace are already members.

A closed shop is a business or industrial factory in which union membership (often of a specific union and no other) is a precondition to employment. All forms of closed shops in the UK are strictly illegal under the Employment Act 1990.

Yes, it could reasonably argued that, morally speaking, it is unfair that non-members receive the same pay award as CWU members who may have lost earnings in support of a strike that won that pay award. But Royal Mail choose to apply that negotiated settlement to ALL employees, whether or not they are CWU members, for reasons of sheer practicality. Imagine trying to run a system of individual performance-related pay rates to the huge number of people that work in Royal Mail: they'd need to employ so many admin staff to monitor front-line staff's work rates that the business would go bankrupt under the weight of all the admin costs ! Like it or not, the fact is that it suits the business and the CWU to have only one body to have to negotiate with, even though that means the non-members get what you would presumably see as a 'free-ride' on the CWU's back. The flipside of that argument is this: using your logic, couldn't it be argued that people not in the union are totally exempt from having to embrace any aspect of the 2007 Pay And Modernisation Agreement ? After all, they didn't pay anybody to negotiate it on their behalf, they didn't get a ballot paper, and most certainly didn't vote it in !!

If this union needs to stand and fight, and unite everybody behind it, calling non-CWU employees spineless is hardly going to make them want to join the union and thus make it stronger, is it ?

(puts on tin helmet and awaits fall-out)

[BELIAL]

I think RM management only have the best interests of the workforce at heart. Lets ditch the antiquated union and give management free reign . We'll be fitter and leaner ,longer hours and half as much money for junk food and if we are all dead by 67 then the pension fund will be looking peachy. Perspective I guess

[norbert]

Simple answer join the fekin union !! if your stupid enough to sit on the fence then you have no right to a vote if you joined then you'd have that democratic right wether it yay or nay ...my opinion is if your not in the union then quite obviously you'll do any thing your lord and master 'lil ad' wants because you do not have a backbone

Right, I'm gonna get slated for this, but playing 'Devil's Advocate' for a minute ....

A strong opinion, axeman. But exactly the sort of insulting rhetoric that makes people not join the union in the first place! It's a form of bullying to insult someone who exercises their legal right to not join a union, even if the overwhelming majority of their colleagues in that workplace are already members.

A closed shop is a business or industrial factory in which union membership (often of a specific union and no other) is a precondition to employment. All forms of closed shops in the UK are strictly illegal under the Employment Act 1990.

Yes, it could reasonably argued that, morally speaking, it is unfair that non-members receive the same pay award as CWU members who may have lost earnings in support of a strike that won that pay award. But Royal Mail choose to apply that negotiated settlement to ALL employees, whether or not they are CWU members, for reasons of sheer practicality. Imagine trying to run a system of individual performance-related pay rates to the huge number of people that work in Royal Mail: they'd need to employ so many admin staff to monitor front-line staff's work rates that the business would go bankrupt under the weight of all the admin costs ! Like it or not, the fact is that it suits the business and the CWU to have only one body to have to negotiate with, even though that means the non-members get what you would presumably see as a 'free-ride' on the CWU's back. The flipside of that argument is this: using your logic, couldn't it be argued that people not in the union are totally exempt from having to embrace any aspect of the 2007 Pay And Modernisation Agreement ? After all, they didn't pay anybody to negotiate it on their behalf, they didn't get a ballot paper, and most certainly didn't vote it in !!

If this union needs to stand and fight, and unite everybody behind it, calling non-CWU employees spineless is hardly going to make them want to join the union and thus make it stronger, is it ?

(puts on tin helmet and awaits fall-out)

Even Senior Managers on the Hellmail forum in 2007 admitted they need a union to do collective bargaining with BUT a in house sweetheart one as Dave Ward suggested , otherwise it would cost a fortune to do appraisals , bonuses etc - the only alternative would be piece work and a low basic rate of pay ?

Yes you have to " educate " people , I've seen " Thatcher's children " that have been stitched up by managers or nearly sacked on RMAP technicalities that have been represented and joined - 1 . It sends a message out to said managers that they can't pull fast ones again 2 . Those people have learned that RM isn't quite what it's cracked up to be and what is the lesser of the two devils at the very worst and word gets around to other " Thatcher's children " ?

[norbert]

I think RM management only have the best interests of the workforce at heart. Lets ditch the antiquated union and give management free reign . We'll be fitter and leaner ,longer hours and half as much money for junk food and if we are all dead by 67 then the pension fund will be looking peachy. Perspective I guess

sarcy

[BELIAL]

I think RM management only have the best interests of the workforce at heart. Lets ditch the antiquated union and give management free reign . We'll be fitter and leaner ,longer hours and half as much money for junk food and if we are all dead by 67 then the pension fund will be looking peachy. Perspective I guess

sarcy

Out of options Shrug

[norbert]

I think RM management only have the best interests of the workforce at heart. Lets ditch the antiquated union and give management free reign . We'll be fitter and leaner ,longer hours and half as much money for junk food and if we are all dead by 67 then the pension fund will be looking peachy. Perspective I guess

sarcy

Out of options Shrug

the irony is that is exactly what 148 Old St want - certainly with Phase 4 , if not Phase 3 - there is bad feeling about Mandy having to kick privatization into the long grass and some that can't wait for the likes of Slimy Cameron and his public school side kick Osbourne + the fighting feotus to come along and privatization , so they'll want RM with profits fattened up & downsized to make it saleable

Old Etonians being the party of the poor

[OnAFlyer]

Simple answer join the fekin union !! if your stupid enough to sit on the fence then you have no right to a vote if you joined then you'd have that democratic right wether it yay or nay ...my opinion is if your not in the union then quite obviously you'll do any thing your lord and master 'lil ad' wants because you do not have a backbone

The Way Forward
Pay & Modernisation 2007

Those 2 things are why I am no longer a union member - you're all complaining about what's happening at RM right now but you bloody voted it in because the CWU told you to!

If the problem with P&M 2007 is that it is too 'open to interpretation' then someone with half a brain should have realised that before telling CWU members to vote for it.

The way forward was the biggest step backwards we have ever taken, who turned down a better deal before finally telling posties to vote for the cr*p we actually got?


That's why some people choose not to be in the CWU, the top brass are incompetent and only in it for the big pay and pension pot.

[upmyroad]

Simple answer join the fekin union !! if your stupid enough to sit on the fence then you have no right to a vote if you joined then you'd have that democratic right wether it yay or nay ...my opinion is if your not in the union then quite obviously you'll do any thing your lord and master 'lil ad' wants because you do not have a backbone

The Way Forward
Pay & Modernisation 2007

Those 2 things are why I am no longer a union member - you're all complaining about what's happening at RM right now but you bloody voted it in because the CWU told you to!

If the problem with P&M 2007 is that it is too 'open to interpretation' then someone with half a brain should have realised that before telling CWU members to vote for it.

The way forward was the biggest step backwards we have ever taken, who turned down a better deal before finally telling posties to vote for the cr*p we actually got?


That's why some people choose not to be in the CWU, the top brass are incompetent and only in it for the big pay and pension pot.

Never have truer words been spoken

[FellChair]

The Way Forward
Pay & Modernisation 2007

Those 2 things are why I am no longer a union member - you're all complaining about what's happening at RM right now but you bloody voted it in because the CWU told you to!

If the problem with P&M 2007 is that it is too 'open to interpretation' then someone with half a brain should have realised that before telling CWU members to vote for it.

The way forward was the biggest step backwards we have ever taken, who turned down a better deal before finally telling posties to vote for the cr*p we actually got?


That's why some people choose not to be in the CWU, the top brass are incompetent and only in it for the big pay and pension pot.

Very good points, well made.

Although now you'll be accused of being a Dom, big Al's love child or being firmly lodged up Adams you know where!

[OnAFlyer]

Never have truer words been spoken

Very good points, well made.

Although now you'll be accused of being a Dom, big Al's love child or being firmly lodged up Adams you know where!

A DOM - no thanks I'm just a postie who has watched the CWU make a mess of two huge disputes and yet people still blame RM completely for what's now happening.

[Himaggen]

Sorry for the shameless bump, I think my post may have got caught up in the crossfire!

can non CWU members be taken down the disciplinary route for not attending during IA?

[baldrick]

Don't think so. There are (and always have been) non CWU members who do not go in during IA at my MC.
I know Managers do threaten casuals that they will not be kept on if they don't come in though.

[DGP1]

Sorry for the shameless bump, I think my post may have got caught up in the crossfire!

can non CWU members be taken down the disciplinary route for not attending during IA?

No, if it's official IA then they can strike along with those in the union, the only thing they can't do is vote on whether to take IA.

[Martin Walsh]

The number of People who left the CWU after the way forward and indeed after pay and mod was minimal . Of course members viewed those agreements in different ways , certainly the Way Forward was probably the most bitter inter union fight that we have seen in recent times with the first agreement being rejected by the members and the second being accepted , John Keggie survied by just one branch`s vote on a no confidence motion and evenutally led to his defeat to Billy Hayes for the general secretary and Dave Ward for the DGSP.

As someone who help lead the campaign against a yes vote for the way forward , I knew that the Pay Restructuring part was reasonable , as was the annual leave , the problem for me was the ways of working , the working time agreement and the other agreements which accompanied it such as PBS and the interim delivery agreement. However lets not lose sight of the fact that we had defeated teamworking, monthly pay , acceptance of a 60 /40 split of full time to part time workers , plus an end to seniority and a number of other changes which were unacceptable including no more resigns , one to ones APRs and no more 318s.

With regards to Pay and Mod well Royal Mail wanted to introduce 27 strings which included monthly pay , indivudals coming in 2 hours before or after their time on a daily basis , managers allocating leave rather then indivduals choosing leave , no more duties schedules in mail centres , no more caps on door to door , teamworking all year , annualised hours which the manager chooses , later starts with no protection of shift allownaces , no more seniority and later saturdays. The CWU defeated all of that.

In addition to this was the pension changes which Royal Mail introduced which I think the whole of the CWU have failed to act on this time not just headquarters..

Yes we eventually agreed a pay and mod agreement which has not been successful other then having parked some of the problems and released 2 x £400 payments and two pay rises.

However if thats your reason for leaving the CWU well we are better without you because personally i would rather have people who are up for the fight and if they dont like whats happening with the leadership then organise to change it thats what we did after the way forward when we removed half the postal executive and elected Dave Ward for DGSP , Bob Gibson for assistant secretary.

Look face facts we are in the fight which drawfs both the way forward and pay and mod , this is Royal Mail in my view deciding that automation will not lead to the savings they wanted and have decided to introduce all the changes they want now without union agreement. Does anyone really think that they are better off without the CWU , if they do then they are mad , I know from the attacks we are facing in London and are fighting that they wont think twice about attacking offices which they dont think will fight. So if your not in a union and if your office has not got a majority of union members you might as well stick a white flag on top of your office as you will have all of Royal Mail `s plans imposed on you as they will see your office as easy pickings.

So good luck to you . But i will contiue to fight for my terms and conditions and for the industry which i work in and I know that we will achieve an agreement which does not stop change but will provide both protection and benefits for us who work in the industry. Of course as we are no longer a closed shop my scarifice will also help you as you have decided to be a free loader.