really really pissed off

[dvbuk55]

Yes well said westlondonpostie....I've been doing the job nearly 2 years and must have done over 40 duties but on the last resign about 6 months ago I was lucky enough to get my own duty as a number of duties had been kept for 32.5hr staff and 25hr staff. Now as you can imagine the duties which got chosen for part-timers were the worst walks in the office which a lot of people (with more seniority than myself) turned their nose up at, but I bit the bullet and chose the one closest to where I live out of the 3 remaining and it's a rough area and takes nearly 4 hours to complete on a heavy day but after a while now I've got to know the customers it doesn't seem quite as bad. But I would happily give it up at the next resign to someone with more seniority than myself if they wanted it as I think they have earned the right to have the pick of walks after years of putting up with all the s**t. And I know in years to come I will be the one with some seniority and have that choice. Seniority in my opinion is the only fair way to do things in RM.

Just so. You get used to a delivery, even after my delivery, as was, changed to fewer drops but a longer walk I still kept doing it on a repick for another 4 years. The only reason I changed was because they had altered the criteria on job and finish and the SDD came in and put an end to the advantages of a rural delivery and so I took a delivery in town where I live and went home for breakfast. I suppose on seniority I have been lucky to have been in an office where there has been massive development and so from an office 20 years ago of 65 officers it has swollen to about 165, and with sackings and retirements I would be in the top 25 or so. And if it is any consolation the years have absolutely flown by.

[shadow]

we've just had a revision imposed on us and as we refused to sign management allocated duties and a lot of us senior men have got screwed

so it would be ok for somebody less senior to get screwed??????

this is my problem. Seniority seems to also bring selfishness. When all duties are achievable and fair then have a resign based on seniority and not before. NOBODY should be getting screwed to keep the old timers happy.

I'll repeat, if you cannot do the job.....get out. I owe you nothing

Yes and they owe YOU NOTHING! If YOU can't hack it YOU get out.

[brothermagrew]

Whilst on the subject of seniority within the workplace came across this highly informative paper by the University of Aberdeen entitled Seniority Profiles in Unionised Workplaces: Do Unions Still Have the Edge?


In this paper, the author explores how institutional arrangements influence
employees’ wages. Particularly, the focus of this study is to distinguish the different
paths seniority-earnings profiles follow depending on whether the individual is
employed in a workplace where trade unions and collective bargaining are present
and/or where formal wage scale rules are adopted. The findings suggest some quite
interesting patterns. Overall, it appears that senior workers, compared to their
junior colleagues, are better off when covered by formal incremental scales, since
seniority wage profiles are estimated to be steeper in these jobs. Furthermore, as the
results imply, formal wage rules are more likely to be adopted in workplaces with
union representation. Nevertheless, there are indications that seniority plays a
significant role even in union jobs with no such scales rules.

Full details at: http://www.swan.ac.uk/economics/res2004 ... elidis.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Ethilfrog]

In this paper, the author explores how institutional arrangements influence
employees’ wages. Particularly, the focus of this study is to distinguish the different
paths seniority-earnings profiles follow depending on whether the individual is
employed in a workplace where trade unions and collective bargaining are present
and/or where formal wage scale rules are adopted. The findings suggest some quite
interesting patterns. Overall, it appears that senior workers, compared to their
junior colleagues, are better off when covered by formal incremental scales, since
seniority wage profiles are estimated to be steeper in these jobs. Furthermore, as the
results imply, formal wage rules are more likely to be adopted in workplaces with
union representation. Nevertheless, there are indications that seniority plays a
significant role even in union jobs with no such scales rules.

Full details at: http://www.swan.ac.uk/economics/res2004 ... elidis.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You are surely not supporting incremental pay for OPGs ! As I understand it, this was done away with in the aftermath of the 1971 dispute, and a good thing too. We still have the system where you don't move onto the main pay level until you've worked for a year.

That said, the abolition of the PHG grade was a retrograde step. Now the only prospect of advancement is going into management, or getting the best duty through sheer time-serving (not much use for me, as I didn't join RM until I was 48). Add me to the list of people who think seniority is a bad way to decide who does what.

[brothermagrew]

Far from it brother, I was merely only drawing the attention of RMC users to the existence of this paper, and for the record being a postie for more years than I care to remember, I am of the opinion that seniority counts and therefore totally agee with westlondonpostie's views on this subject matter.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

so it would be ok for somebody less senior to get screwed??????

this is my problem. Seniority seems to also bring selfishness. When all duties are achievable and fair then have a resign based on seniority and not before. NOBODY should be getting screwed to keep the old timers happy.

I'll repeat, if you cannot do the job.....get out. I owe you nothing

But do you have system that can replace that is fair to absolutely everybody whether they started in 1975 or 0845 this morning. There is, and there will never be a totally fair system but at least seniority awards loyalty and does not allow Management to use selection by them as a tool to grind down trouble makers, DDA affected staff or simply people they don't like.

I would be interested if anyone could come up with a fairer scheme, if you can post on here and most would be delighted to critique it.

SO everyone knows where I am speaking from I am in the lowest 10% of seniority in my office and even if I stay to 66 (my new retiring age thats NewLiebour) I will never get higher than about 1/2 way.

[dvbuk55]

You are surely not supporting incremental pay for OPGs ! As I understand it, this was done away with in the aftermath of the 1971 dispute, and a good thing too. We still have the system where you don't move onto the main pay level until you've worked for a year.

That said, the abolition of the PHG grade was a retrograde step. Now the only prospect of advancement is going into management, or getting the best duty through sheer time-serving (not much use for me, as I didn't join RM until I was 48). Add me to the list of people who think seniority is a bad way to decide who does what.

Of course you would be against it because there is little mileage in you gaining seniority before retirement - I was 43 when I joined RM and there are a few people much younger than me who are senior to me and in 15 years time you will be in the position I am now.

As for incremental increases - yes I am all for it, because with the advent of the no pay rise years - the last three have been barren, then it makes sense to have an annual loyalty payment for each year served - it doesn't have to be monumental but it would be an increase and a recognition of service, pensionable of course, because if the non pay rises keep coming then the career average pension will be ludicrously underfunded.

[ghostgirl]

we've just had a revision imposed on us and as we refused to sign management allocated duties and a lot of us senior men have got screwed

so it would be ok for somebody less senior to get screwed??????

this is my problem. Seniority seems to also bring selfishness. When all duties are achievable and fair then have a resign based on seniority and not before. NOBODY should be getting screwed to keep the old timers happy.

I'll repeat, if you cannot do the job.....get out. I owe you nothing

ad0128 nobody deserves to get screwed whether more senior or not but I think most people on here will agree we all get screwed by RM anyway so the duties are neither here nor there and if we don't all stand up and fight now the job will only get worse. I think you are being disrespectful saying these people should get out if they can't do the job after doing it for such a long time (sometimes 20-30+ years) they deserve the easier walks don't they!!!

[andy2007]

we've just had a revision imposed on us and as we refused to sign management allocated duties and a lot of us senior men have got screwed

so it would be ok for somebody less senior to get screwed??????

this is my problem. Seniority seems to also bring selfishness. When all duties are achievable and fair then have a resign based on seniority and not before. NOBODY should be getting screwed to keep the old timers happy.

I'll repeat, if you cannot do the job.....get out. I owe you nothing

No, of course it wouldn't be ok to screw someone with less seniority. But everyone starts off with the crap duties, and works their way up, to the good ones. So if someone has put in a number of years, and got a good duty. Then has a terrible duty forced on them. Then obviously they've been screwed. No-one goes strait into a good duty.

That's the whole point of seniority IMHO: If you can put the time in, doing the crap jobs, then you deserve a good one. If you can't hack it, then when you quit, you won't have been depriving anyone of a good duty. Just bide your time. You'll get a good Duty eventually, just the same as everyone else.

[ghostgirl]

andy2007 your spot on mate (looks for a thumbs up smiley but doesn't find one)

[TrueBlueTerrier]

andy2007 your spot on mate (looks for a thumbs up smiley but doesn't find one)

here borrow mine because I agree Andy has it spot on.

[ghostgirl]

andy2007 your spot on mate (looks for a thumbs up smiley but doesn't find one)

here borrow mine because I agree Andy has it spot on.

awww thanks TBT can you not add it to the smileys part

[Ethilfrog]

You are surely not supporting incremental pay for OPGs ! As I understand it, this was done away with in the aftermath of the 1971 dispute, and a good thing too. We still have the system where you don't move onto the main pay level until you've worked for a year.

That said, the abolition of the PHG grade was a retrograde step. Now the only prospect of advancement is going into management, or getting the best duty through sheer time-serving (not much use for me, as I didn't join RM until I was 48). Add me to the list of people who think seniority is a bad way to decide who does what.

Of course you would be against it because there is little mileage in you gaining seniority before retirement - I was 43 when I joined RM and there are a few people much younger than me who are senior to me and in 15 years time you will be in the position I am now.

As for incremental increases - yes I am all for it, because with the advent of the no pay rise years - the last three have been barren, then it makes sense to have an annual loyalty payment for each year served - it doesn't have to be monumental but it would be an increase and a recognition of service, pensionable of course, because if the non pay rises keep coming then the career average pension will be ludicrously underfunded.

Hmm. In 15 years time I will be 72. I hope very much not to be employed by anyone then ! Although the current goverment, and I guess the next, will be happy to see us all stacking shelves in Tesco when we're 85.

Don't people who joined RM in later life deserve better than being treated as permanent second-class citizens ? There are 340 people on our seniority list, I've done nearly 9 years and I am less than 100 from the bottom. That said, I've been able to carve out an acceptable niche for myself (I'm in processing rather than deliveries which makes things easier I think) and I always say that when there's unfairness the trick is to make sure more than 50% of it works in my favour.

Annual increments. In my previous life I was a civil servant. When I joined you had an entry scale, which you stayed on for three years. Then you moved to the main scale, which at the time was nearly twenty years long. After a while I got promoted, and my new salary, near the bottom of my new scale, was well below the max for my previous grade. Ludicrous. I believe the current pay scales are a lot shorter, but as far as RM OPGs are concerned I see no mileage in offering people in the same grade extra money just because of longevity. We all do similar work which is semi-skilled at best and it doesn't take years to learn. Anyway, in practice it would swiftly become a device for underpaying newcomers -- as I believe the system came to be seen in RM pre 1971.

However I am interested to see someone arguing in favour, and thank you for that.

[westlondonpostie]

we've just had a revision imposed on us and as we refused to sign management allocated duties and a lot of us senior men have got screwed

so it would be ok for somebody less senior to get screwed??????

this is my problem. Seniority seems to also bring selfishness. When all duties are achievable and fair then have a resign based on seniority and not before. NOBODY should be getting screwed to keep the old timers happy.

I'll repeat, if you cannot do the job.....get out. I owe you nothing

I can do the job, after 24 yrs no customer complaints, no warnings over sickness and no disciplinary action against me,
I've earned my seniority, 24yrs ago would you have given a monkeys that I was working monday to friday 3pm to 10:30pm then on saturday 8am to 4pm, or 20yrs ago doing a dble delivery of a 20 storey twr block with a lift as well as 10 floor by floors without lifts or 22yrs ago working the nite shift 10pm to 8:30am with an hr enforced overtime to do a nite walk, As a young man I would have much prefered to have been able to be out with my mates on a friday nite
My point is that the senior men have already done and stuck out the s**t walks that you are doing now, I didn't complain then and I don't complain now when men and women senior to me can sign for a better duty.
You said seniority seems to also bring selfishness, or is it just jealousy, When you last had a resign did you sign for a duty ahead of anyone or did you not bother signing and pick up the job that nobody signed for?

I said that we had been screwed because some managers have taken the oppotunity to get even with Postmen who have stood up to them in the past, there's a bloke who's done 30yrs 15 on the same walk and he has been taken off of it, in another Office someone with 33yrs is now an Office reserve and does not know what he is doing from 1 day to the nxt,
After 24yrs I've shown that I can do the job, I took the s**t without moaning, maybe it's you who can't do the job and should get out!
And as a final thought how many years have you put in?

[ghostgirl]

"I can do the job, after 24 yrs no customer complaints, no warnings over sickness and no disciplinary action against me"

Bloody hell westlondonpostie I say you can do the job alright, I thought I was doing well not having 1 day off in nearly 2yrs but 24yrs with no customer complaints no warnings for sickness and no disciplinarys that's good going my friend and I salute you - you deserve your seniority and I hope I can achieve 24yrs and have your record