ANNOUNCEMENT : ALL OF ROYAL MAIL'S EMPLOYMENT POLICIES (AGREEMENTS) AT A GLANCE (Updated 2021)... HERE

ANNOUNCEMENT : PLEASE BE AWARE WE ARE NOT ON FACEBOOK AT ALL!

Sacked postie wins £22k and job back

Latest Royal Mail and CWU news.This is an open forum.
steve b
Posts: 4
Joined: 24 Oct 2007, 21:14
Gender: Male

Re: Sacked postie wins £22k and job back

Post by steve b »

Comrades,
I think the important factor around this case was that at each stage of the Attendance Procedure, where Accidents on Duty (AOD) figured there was documented evidence that those AOD’s had been discounted, therefore it was unreasonable for the dismissing manager to allow them to enter into to his decision rationale.
The difficulty comes when managers count an AOD within a stage interview, to remedy those events members should register the accident with DWP as an industrial accident.
In addition should the manager count the AOD - then the member must use the Grievance Procedure to protest against the treatment by the manager, this will need to be followed to the final stage of the Grievance Procedure. Then should the individual end up in an Employment Tribunal it can then be clearly demonstrated that the individual never accepted the decision.
The key phrase in the Attendance Procedure is AOD are normally discounted, this can and will be used in an ET judgement. Cases have been lost on AOD’s that have been included at one of the stage interviews. Many occasions members will go into an interview without a rep, a decision is made to include, member then signs interview notes – lock the door on your way out!
:arrrghhh
norbert
Posts: 3027
Joined: 15 Jan 2008, 01:46

Re: Sacked postie wins £22k and job back Instuitionalized Dishon

Post by norbert »

POSTMAN wrote:100+ ACHIEVEMENTS OF THE CWU - 2003 EDITION

1st June 2003

http://www.cwu.org/100-achievements-of- ... ition.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Welcome to the first edition of CWU achievements.

Seems this was the 1st and the last unless anyone can get other ones if they were published.
We won almost £26M in legal claims in 2002 on behalf of our members - an outstanding achievement, benefiting many members in need.
Then RM started moving the elastic goalposts - elastic stretched to bungee jumping levels , RM were being monitored by the HSE as though the policy looked good on paper - the reality and compliance was poor , there's pressure from Europe and slash and burn " modernization " and a sales derived bonus culture .

If RM can hound someone through the door who has lost too many days through AOD's , of course RM will do it . Instuitionalized dishonesty as we all know . DON'T fall for that it's all your fault routine - that's verbal / subtle bullying .

RM's attitude would be that they are all professional claimers out to screw RM for every penny , everyone knows them but there's shades of grey not just black and white :d'oh! .

No wonder management was done by "a unique brand of confrontation " and you got a culture of fear and a blame culture . Not very healthy and there is much more healthier organizations . The "culture" emanates from the very top .

Never ever , go in without a rep as everything is purely to impress other managers to be seen as singing from the same hymn sheet and don't sign your life away . RM Senior & Area management operate at the very limit of employment law at best and put some very perverse interpretations on matters at the worst .

Take H&S / AOD matters outside RM so RM can't close ranks , like report them to the DHSS and the HSE / Council Environmental Health , they won't like it , rogue managers will see staff as grasses , whistleblowers , loose canons but that's their problem if they are still in the playground and it's a place of work NOT a prison
wranglered
Posts: 365
Joined: 29 Jan 2007, 16:40
Location: Lincolnshire

Re: Sacked postie wins £22k and job back

Post by wranglered »

steve b wrote:Comrades,
I think the important factor around this case was that at each stage of the Attendance Procedure, where Accidents on Duty (AOD) figured there was documented evidence that those AOD’s had been discounted, therefore it was unreasonable for the dismissing manager to allow them to enter into to his decision rationale.
The difficulty comes when managers count an AOD within a stage interview, to remedy those events members should register the accident with DWP as an industrial accident.
In addition should the manager count the AOD - then the member must use the Grievance Procedure to protest against the treatment by the manager, this will need to be followed to the final stage of the Grievance Procedure. Then should the individual end up in an Employment Tribunal it can then be clearly demonstrated that the individual never accepted the decision.
The key phrase in the Attendance Procedure is AOD are normally discounted, this can and will be used in an ET judgement. Cases have been lost on AOD’s that have been included at one of the stage interviews. Many occasions members will go into an interview without a rep, a decision is made to include, member then signs interview notes – lock the door on your way out!
:arrrghhh
spot on post Stevie B :shock:
norbert
Posts: 3027
Joined: 15 Jan 2008, 01:46

Re: Sacked postie wins £22k and job back

Post by norbert »

wranglered wrote:
steve b wrote:Comrades,
I think the important factor around this case was that at each stage of the Attendance Procedure, where Accidents on Duty (AOD) figured there was documented evidence that those AOD’s had been discounted, therefore it was unreasonable for the dismissing manager to allow them to enter into to his decision rationale.
The difficulty comes when managers count an AOD within a stage interview, to remedy those events members should register the accident with DWP as an industrial accident.
In addition should the manager count the AOD - then the member must use the Grievance Procedure to protest against the treatment by the manager, this will need to be followed to the final stage of the Grievance Procedure. Then should the individual end up in an Employment Tribunal it can then be clearly demonstrated that the individual never accepted the decision.
The key phrase in the Attendance Procedure is AOD are normally discounted, this can and will be used in an ET judgement. Cases have been lost on AOD’s that have been included at one of the stage interviews. Many occasions members will go into an interview without a rep, a decision is made to include, member then signs interview notes – lock the door on your way out!
:arrrghhh
spot on post Stevie B :shock:
technically RM would say in court that they followed procedure even if it was a bit ? bent doesn't matter how vague or obscure the basis or reasoning is , RM would just say it's " street fighting industrial politics with or without a small " P " . That would be the justification for Gormless Gordon's tactics with the emailgate scandal , :mfo 's mate ( yes he does have a friend :Very Happy ) said it was a brilliant idea .
They've also got some heavy weight solicitors - " RM will defend it's position at any Industrial Tribunal " - They're hardly going to put the white flag up and say " it's a fair cop , we're a bunch of c**ts ? " - On Planet RM - it'll be the nasty union plotting to stop the job / slow down the job - get it's members something for nothing , you'd think that some managers were paying out of their own pockets , but they are committed to the " cause " . :Very Happy
Last edited by norbert on 15 Apr 2009, 09:28, edited 1 time in total.
swoosta
Posts: 166
Joined: 08 Oct 2007, 00:19
Gender: Male
Location: London

Re: Sacked postie wins £22k and job back

Post by swoosta »

This is the same Union for my area. They are pretty useless, don't listen to members and sign deals with managers without letting the members agree
wranglered
Posts: 365
Joined: 29 Jan 2007, 16:40
Location: Lincolnshire

Re: Sacked postie wins £22k and job back

Post by wranglered »

swoosta wrote:This is the same Union for my area. They are pretty useless, don't listen to members and sign deals with managers without letting the members agree
Tell us some more!!!!.......heartily sick of the spin on why we should all stick together...some of these officials have been riding the gravy train for years...now, when the s***t hits the fan they are asking for our backing...where was it for us when it mattered?...what have they been doing on all that cosy release at our expense?.......let's hear some tales of incompetence, idleness and downright corruption...surely it cannot be as bad as I have seen in my neck of the woods....
Big Daz
Posts: 5668
Joined: 17 Apr 2007, 20:27
Gender: Male

Re: Sacked postie wins £22k and job back

Post by Big Daz »

Gravy?

I'd recomend Bisto. :dance
planx
Posts: 12
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 23:45
Gender: Male

Re: Sacked postie wins £22k and job back

Post by planx »

wranglered wrote:
swoosta wrote:This is the same Union for my area. They are pretty useless, don't listen to members and sign deals with managers without letting the members agree
Tell us some more!!!!.......heartily sick of the spin on why we should all stick together...some of these officials have been riding the gravy train for years...now, when the s***t hits the fan they are asking for our backing...where was it for us when it mattered?...what have they been doing on all that cosy release at our expense?.......let's hear some tales of incompetence, idleness and downright corruption...surely it cannot be as bad as I have seen in my neck of the woods....
Isn't it far far better to concentrate on the positive?
Lets all hear more of the rep that stood not for their own personal agenda, but stands for their members.

They are out there, I know some of them.

Keep banging on about the corrupt, the unjust, the lazy and the ones who are more interested in their own personal gain does no one any good.

Lets heap praise on those that deserve it.
Negativity only serves to destroy. We need to get positive.
We need to know that we have reps, even if it's only at local level, that will fight our corner.

I'm sick to death of the moaners. I'm sick to death of those that, through their own bitterness, seek to destroy the good intentions of others.

So, lets NOT hear more negativity.

What we should be concentrating on with the topic of this thread is that the member won the day.

Yes HQ should have fought the members corner.
But at least the member got local support and won the day.
Would they have won without the support of the local Union?
Who knows!

The CWU is not without fault. But no person or organisation is without fault. But we're all a damn sight better off with the CWU than we would be without it.
andy2007
Posts: 3971
Joined: 14 Sep 2007, 10:16
Gender: Male
Location: Earth

What about some examples of good Reps?

Post by andy2007 »

I couldn't agree more with you Planx! There ARE good Reps out there. And they deserve to be recognised as such, instead of constantly reading posts, slagging off the CWU as a whole!

I know there are some terrible Reps too (I've come across a couple myself :mad ), but the point is, that we should either stand ourselves, or get someone else to stand against the bad ones. That way, we can actually DO somehing about it, instead of just moaning. It doesn't always work out, as Wranglered has already told us. But that doesn't mean that we should just give up on the CWU!

It's also true, that HQ lost touch with the Membership. But some are trying to do something about that. Hopefully, more will follow suit. And if not, we need to try to replace the ones who dont make the effort. :hmmmm
Don't knock Insanity
it's just another outlook on Reality!
wranglered
Posts: 365
Joined: 29 Jan 2007, 16:40
Location: Lincolnshire

Re: Sacked postie wins £22k and job back

Post by wranglered »

planx wrote:
Keep banging on about the corrupt, the unjust, the lazy and the ones who are more interested in their own personal gain does no one any good.

- so how do you change things?

Lets heap praise on those that deserve it.

- and criticism on those that don't.....

Negativity only serves to destroy. We need to get positive.

- what have we got to be positive about? Probably no pay rise for three years....pensions "decoupled", in other words surrendered...totally rampant RM management and a CWU organisation that, with a few glorious exceptions, is totally incapable of stopping the destruction of our terms and conditions

We need to know that we have reps, even if it's only at local level, that will fight our corner.

- well I was one till RM sacked me for doing exactly what the CWU asked me to do...hopefully soon with my job back after 7 months of waiting...where was my branch I ask myself?....oh yeah, I remember, trying to charge me through the NDC or colluding with local managers....

I'm sick to death of the moaners. I'm sick to death of those that, through their own bitterness, seek to destroy the good intentions of others.

- you have only been a member of RMC for a month...surely you cannot be sick to death so quickly?

So, lets NOT hear more negativity.

- all I ask is you to be realistic...the CWU are realistic...why do you think they are desperate to recruit members from outside RM?....no, not that they want to expand the membership for the good of all, but because they are scared senseless about the collapse in contributions that is coming their way after the failure to see how serious RM are about slashing the workforce and driving down pay......

What we should be concentrating on with the topic of this thread is that the member won the day.

- if you look at my original postings that is exactly what I did.....

Yes HQ should have fought the members corner.

-no comment...I have aired my views on this enough...

But at least the member got local support and won the day.
Would they have won without the support of the local Union?
Who knows!

- if Eastern number 4 have significant surplus funds in their accounts, which based on my own branch would seem likely, then why don't they pay for his legal fees? He is £8K out of pocket because HQ did not back him. That would send out a message not only to RM but also the HQ hierarchy that branches will stand up and fight....

The CWU is not without fault. But no person or organisation is without fault. But we're all a damn sight better off with the CWU than we would be without it.......

- but does that mean we should put up with the lack of service we get for our not insubstantial and recently increased contributions????
andy2007
Posts: 3971
Joined: 14 Sep 2007, 10:16
Gender: Male
Location: Earth

Re: Sacked postie wins £22k and job back

Post by andy2007 »

wranglered wrote:
planx wrote:
Keep banging on about the corrupt, the unjust, the lazy and the ones who are more interested in their own personal gain does no one any good.

- so how do you change things?
You do what you've already tried to: Stand against those you feel are letting you down. And try to change things from within. It doesn't always work. And the stakes are high. But it's better than just rolling over, and abandoning the CWU.

Lets heap praise on those that deserve it.

- and criticism on those that don't.....
So long as it's balanced, you're right. But you seem intent on finding as many Reps worthy of criticism as possible. But I've yet to see a Post, where you encourage others to tell stories of the good Reps. I'm sure we've all come across truly crap Reps, at some point in our time at RM. But in my experience, they are the minority (at local level), rather than the majority. So how about a litle balance, please?

Negativity only serves to destroy. We need to get positive.

- what have we got to be positive about? Probably no pay rise for three years....pensions "decoupled", in other words surrendered...totally rampant RM management and a CWU organisation that, with a few glorious exceptions, is totally incapable of stopping the destruction of our terms and conditions
The Local Reps, who do their best to protect us, despite things like the Pay and Modernisation Agreement. Which is open to too much "interpritation" by RM Management.

We need to know that we have reps, even if it's only at local level, that will fight our corner.

- well I was one till RM sacked me for doing exactly what the CWU asked me to do...hopefully soon with my job back after 7 months of waiting...where was my branch I ask myself?....oh yeah, I remember, trying to charge me through the NDC or colluding with local managers....

I'm sick to death of the moaners. I'm sick to death of those that, through their own bitterness, seek to destroy the good intentions of others.

- you have only been a member of RMC for a month...surely you cannot be sick to death so quickly?

So, lets NOT hear more negativity.

- all I ask is you to be realistic...the CWU are realistic...why do you think they are desperate to recruit members from outside RM?....no, not that they want to expand the membership for the good of all, but because they are scared senseless about the collapse in contributions that is coming their way after the failure to see how serious RM are about slashing the workforce and driving down pay......

What we should be concentrating on with the topic of this thread is that the member won the day.

- if you look at my original postings that is exactly what I did.....

Yes HQ should have fought the members corner.

-no comment...I have aired my views on this enough...

But at least the member got local support and won the day.
Would they have won without the support of the local Union?
Who knows!

- if Eastern number 4 have significant surplus funds in their accounts, which based on my own branch would seem likely, then why don't they pay for his legal fees? He is £8K out of pocket because HQ did not back him. That would send out a message not only to RM but also the HQ hierarchy that branches will stand up and fight....

The CWU is not without fault. But no person or organisation is without fault. But we're all a damn sight better off with the CWU than we would be without it.......

- but does that mean we should put up with the lack of service we get for our not insubstantial and recently increased contributions????
Don't knock Insanity
it's just another outlook on Reality!
andy2007
Posts: 3971
Joined: 14 Sep 2007, 10:16
Gender: Male
Location: Earth

Re: Sacked postie wins £22k and job back

Post by andy2007 »

That's why I asked for a little balance. Planx was right to point out that concentrating on the negative, does far more harm than good. But we can't let ourselves fall into the trap of looking at things through "Rose Tinted Glasses" either, or it will be even worse.
Don't knock Insanity
it's just another outlook on Reality!
wranglered
Posts: 365
Joined: 29 Jan 2007, 16:40
Location: Lincolnshire

Re: Sacked postie wins £22k and job back

Post by wranglered »

andy2007 wrote:
But you seem intent on finding as many Reps worthy of criticism as possible. But I've yet to see a Post, where you encourage others to tell stories of the good Reps. I'm sure we've all come across truly crap Reps, at some point in our time at RM. But in my experience, they are the minority (at local level), rather than the majority. So how about a litle balance, please?

I can only speak of my experience in my area....these reps I have criticised have quite obviously failed those they purport to represent....I still think it is a bit rich that some of those who complained about me to the moderators were STRIKEBREAKERS.....

..the other criticism I have levelled is over factual inaccuracies in the press...if we are going to try and fight a battle in the media we ought to get our stories straight...

...anyway on to the good reps....let me raise a toast to the Delivery Rep for Peterborough.....

...there was, I believe, an Anglian Region intitiative in the last few weeks to do the job safely......from what I hear only his office managed to carry this through on any significant scale...for his sins he is now being targetted by his local friendly employer...

I say well done to Peterborough DO for bringing back the mail and doing the job safely....

I say well done to the rep for having proper b******ks....
Let's hope him and his comrades are not left high and dry............
Big Daz
Posts: 5668
Joined: 17 Apr 2007, 20:27
Gender: Male

Re: Sacked postie wins £22k and job back

Post by Big Daz »

Peterborough bringing mail back

I wish we had enough to bring back at my D.O but I think our deliveries are just right.

IPS finished 30 mins early today YET AGAIN in fact IPS finishes early 99% of the time now which gives this duty doing IPS up to 30 mins each day extra to complete within their duty time.

Its a simple fact that the amount of IPS mail Peterborough mail centre are sending to my D.O is down.

But that dosent mean other offices are down and thats what's going wrong there is assumption in RML and CWU that every office must be struggling and every delivery if done properley will mean that the duty officer can not complete in time.

Its all about a having a strategy that's indivdual for each office rather than a one size fits all policy.

Yes working more safely is needed especially in terms of good housekeeping section of RML policy and foot wear, but thats hardly going to a difference to the amount of hours that are needed to run the D.O.

Pouches, well if the mbrs made up a couple of extra pouches and did a couple of extra trips to the pouch box it would add on no more than 5 to 10 mins . My own delivery I have two double drop boxes perfectley and I mean perfectley positioned enabling me to have up to 4 pouches dropped off and one on the bike when I go out.

Sticking to weight limits is going to have greater impact on the time needed to do the job if its done on a walking delivery compared to a bike delivery which brings me straight back to the one size fits all strategy being of no use.

I looked at the signing on sheets when I left work and even those who came early and dont take their break have still made plenty of job and finish time and enough of it that any impact from doing the job properley would very mildly eat into their j and f time but certainly not their duty time!
mogsyboy
EX ROYAL MAIL
Posts: 33
Joined: 08 Aug 2007, 11:57

Re: Sacked postie wins £22k and job back

Post by mogsyboy »

My Positive on this is the fact that although he may have not got HQ support his area rep stood up as a witness for him. That surely is a positive? How often do I hear the union is its members and here we see the local area rep proving it.
Sometimes I think people get disgruntled with their rep because he doesn't tell them what they want to hear. If he doesn't tell them that RM will give them a pat on the back for running round a delivery and instead tells them the facts that you are paid to work your full hours, then he isn't supporting them.
Steve Butts I think has done his job well in this case and so I take that as a real positive that local people can support one another.