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No English, no stamp: Update: He's been sacked

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TrueBlueTerrier
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Re: No English, no stamp: Update: He's been sacked

Post by TrueBlueTerrier »

Tman wrote:
How about that they were eventually assimilated into the population and their skills, unique characteristics and language became part of the fabric of our society of therefore culture.
OK then, so what, in your opinion, were these "skills and characteristics"? That's all I'm asking................ :arrrghhh

I think this is what people certainly me have been trying to get across. :hmmmm
I know, but it wasn't (for about the tenth time of saying it) what I asked.......... :arrrghhh
But why does the discussion have to stick to the question you asked.

Why cant it evolve by iteself
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Tman
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Re: No English, no stamp: Update: He's been sacked

Post by Tman »

But why does the discussion have to stick to the question you asked.
Why not? This sort of forum or debate is pointless otherwise.

"Are United going to top the Prem this year?"
"Dunno, but me cucumber's are doing well"



Why cant it evolve by iteself
It usually does, but normally along the lines of "question and answer" meandering.
I take it you actually have no answers to the question then, and all this old waffle is a smokescreen for that? Why bother getting involved then? :hmmmm
TrueBlueTerrier
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Re: No English, no stamp: Update: He's been sacked

Post by TrueBlueTerrier »

Tman wrote:
But why does the discussion have to stick to the question you asked.
Why not? This sort of forum or debate is pointless otherwise.

"Are United going to top the Prem this year?"
"Dunno, but me cucumber's are doing well"
Why cant it evolve by iteself
It usually does, but normally along the lines of "question and answer" meandering.
I take it you actually have no answers to the question then, and all this old waffle is a smokescreen for that? Why bother getting involved then? :hmmmm
I and others have responded with answers you dismissed them based on an your set time line and other reasons. Just because you personally don't agree with the answers does not invalidate them for others, only for you.

Also a forum is not made pointless if one member disagrees with others points of views and answers, in fact the reverse is probably true. If one member has the final say so on how a topic develops the whole point of a forum, the exchange of views and opinions, falls at the first hurdle.
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andy2007
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Re: No English, no stamp: Update: He's been sacked

Post by andy2007 »

Tman wrote:
How about that they were eventually assimilated into the population and their skills, unique characteristics and language became part of the fabric of our society of therefore culture.
OK then, so what, in your opinion, were these "skills and characteristics"? That's all I'm asking................ :arrrghhh

Ok, here's a few (yes I know some have been posted before):
1) The concept of the number 0.
2) The Decimal System of numbering (which allowed modern mathematics to evolve).
3) A large number of words, as it's a 2 way process. We adopted some from elsewhere, and gave other languages, some of ours.
4) Many types of cuisine.
5) Several styles of art.
6) Many forms of Philosophy.
7) Almost every Religion, including The Church of England.

Those are just what came to mind, in about five minutes of thought. I'm sure more people can expand on that. But sadly, you insist on knowing what Immigrants have added to our Culture, since the 1940's. And the fact is, that with the exception of technological advancements (e.g. the Internet). It takes a lot more than 60 years, for these things to happen. It takes much longer than that, for something new to become a normal part of our Culture.

So specifically: There are very few examples from the time period that you specify. But there are many, many, examples of things that we all take for granted, which were added to our Culture, by Immigrants.


I think this is what people certainly me have been trying to get across. :hmmmm
I know, but it wasn't (for about the tenth time of saying it) what I asked.......... :arrrghhh
No, but it's what I had asked, before your Rhetorical question. And sadly, your attempts to dismiss the value of Immigration, by setting a "convenient" time frame, to suit your aims. Is exactly the type of tactic used by the BNP, and all the others who want to use them as Scapegoats, to cover for all our current problems.

But wasn't it our Government that caused these problems? :hmmmm
Don't knock Insanity
it's just another outlook on Reality!
Tman
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Re: No English, no stamp: Update: He's been sacked

Post by Tman »

Ok, here's a few (yes I know some have been posted before):
1) The concept of the number 0.
2) The Decimal System of numbering (which allowed modern mathematics to evolve).
3) A large number of words, as it's a 2 way process. We adopted some from elsewhere, and gave other languages, some of ours.
4) Many types of cuisine.
5) Several styles of art.
6) Many forms of Philosophy.
7) Almost every Religion, including The Church of England.
So in actual fact, you can't think of any benefits (that isn't to say there isn't any, just that you can't think of them).
I think we can safely assume that art, culture, cuisine, philosophy etc were either here long before the generally accepted start of mass UK immigration in the 1940s, or due to the ever-expanding transport and communication links, would have arrived anyway.

As for religion, are you being ironic?
So specifically: There are very few examples from the time period that you specify.
Right then, so you agree the cliche is BS?



No, but it's what I had asked, before your Rhetorical question. And sadly, your attempts to dismiss the value of Immigration, by setting a "convenient" time frame, to suit your aims. Is exactly the type of tactic used by the BNP, and all the others who want to use them as Scapegoats, to cover for all our current problems.
Now you're doing it too. I don't have any "aims" to be "suited" or views on immigration one way or the other. Why does debate always end up being personalised on here?
But wasn't it our Government that caused these problems?


What "problems" are you referring to?
andy2007
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Re: No English, no stamp: Update: He's been sacked

Post by andy2007 »

Tman wrote:
Ok, here's a few (yes I know some have been posted before):
1) The concept of the number 0.
2) The Decimal System of numbering (which allowed modern mathematics to evolve).
3) A large number of words, as it's a 2 way process. We adopted some from elsewhere, and gave other languages, some of ours.
4) Many types of cuisine.
5) Several styles of art.
6) Many forms of Philosophy.
7) Almost every Religion, including The Church of England.
So in actual fact, you can't think of any benefits (that isn't to say there isn't any, just that you can't think of them).
I think we can safely assume that art, culture, cuisine, philosophy etc were either here long before the generally accepted start of mass UK immigration in the 1940s, or due to the ever-expanding transport and communication links, would have arrived anyway.
Who "generally accepted" 1940 as the start of mass Immigration?
As far as I'm aware, it's just the date that was picked by zenophobes, to try to alienate them.

It's a simple fact, that changes to Culture, take a considerable length of time. Just look at the historical evidence, which was provided for you. Or better yet, look it up for yourself.

With the exception of major upheavals, like the Industrial Revolution, and the introduction of the Internet. There have been NO examples of important changes inCulture, which have happened over a short (less than 100 years) time period. Unless of course I'm mistaken, and you can provide such an example.

As for religion, are you being ironic?

No, merely stating a fact.
So specifically: There are very few examples from the time period that you specify.
Right then, so you agree the cliche is BS?

What cleche?
It's simply a fact, that we are who we are, because of Immigration. British Culture has been influenced by Immigration, since day 1. And no amount of insisting that Immigration started in 1940, will change those facts.


No, but it's what I had asked, before your Rhetorical question. And sadly, your attempts to dismiss the value of Immigration, by setting a "convenient" time frame, to suit your aims. Is exactly the type of tactic used by the BNP, and all the others who want to use them as Scapegoats, to cover for all our current problems.
Now you're doing it too. I don't have any "aims" to be "suited" or views on immigration one way or the other. Why does debate always end up being personalised on here?

Why else, would you be so insistant that mass Immigration only started in 1940. When there's a considerable amount of Historical evidence, that it has been happening since Britain was founded?
But wasn't it our Government that caused these problems?


What "problems" are you referring to?
The ones that so many people keep blaming on Immigration: Lack of jobs, High taxes, etc..
Don't knock Insanity
it's just another outlook on Reality!
Tman
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Re: No English, no stamp: Update: He's been sacked

Post by Tman »

[
color=#008000]Who "generally accepted" 1940 as the start of mass Immigration?
As far as I'm aware, it's just the date that was picked by zenophobes, to try to alienate them.
The word is "xenophobe" and you talking rubbish. The 1940s is regarded to be the time when mass immigration started as that's when history showed that it did. You know, the Empire Windrush, and all that? There's been enough TV programmes about it recently.


It's a simple fact, that changes to Culture, take a considerable length of time. Just look at the historical evidence, which was provided for you. Or better yet, look it up for yourself.
Why look it up? I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying it's nothing to do with the point. Surprise surprise....
With the exception of major upheavals, like the Industrial Revolution, and the introduction of the Internet. There have been NO examples of important changes inCulture, which have happened over a short (less than 100 years) time period. Unless of course I'm mistaken, and you can provide such an example.[/color]
What?
As for religion, are you being ironic?

No, merely stating a fact.
What?


What cleche?
It's simply a fact, that we are who we are, because of Immigration. British Culture has been influenced by Immigration, since day 1. And no amount of insisting that Immigration started in 1940, will change those facts.
I never said it did start in 1940. I said the modern era of mass immigration into the UK started in the late 1940s. See the difference?


[
Why else, would you be so insistant that mass Immigration only started in 1940. When there's a considerable amount of Historical evidence, that it has been happening since Britain was founded?


Andy, I'm starting to think you're reading what you want to read rather than what was written. [Incidentally, how would there be any immigration into the UK in 1940? There was a war on, remember?]
See the previous posts again, eh?
TrueBlueTerrier
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Re: No English, no stamp: Update: He's been sacked

Post by TrueBlueTerrier »

Those escaping Nazi Tyranny such as the Jews, Polish, Norwegian, Czech, French Free Forces. Some of the most successful Fighter Squadrons of the Battle of Britain were Polish or Czech - of which a vast majority of the survivors remained in the UK after the War.
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Re: No English, no stamp: Update: He's been sacked

Post by Lounge Lizard »

Those suggesting that immigration started in the 1940s must be forgetting the Romans, Vikings, Angles and Saxons. :shock:
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Re: No English, no stamp: Update: He's been sacked

Post by baldrick »

Not to mention hominid man.
We all originated from Africa, and spread (emigrated?) over the world.
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/lucy-the ... leton.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tman
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Re: No English, no stamp: Update: He's been sacked

Post by Tman »

Lounge Lizard wrote:Those suggesting that immigration started in the 1940s must be forgetting the Romans, Vikings, Angles and Saxons. :shock:
That's right, they would be, but then who's suggesting that?
Tman
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Re: No English, no stamp: Update: He's been sacked

Post by Tman »

TrueBlueTerrier wrote:Those escaping Nazi Tyranny such as the Jews, Polish, Norwegian, Czech, French Free Forces. Some of the most successful Fighter Squadrons of the Battle of Britain were Polish or Czech - of which a vast majority of the survivors remained in the UK after the War.

How about several thousand German and Italian PoWs, by your reasoning they should be included too. Then there were thousands of Jewish kids, how about them? Them add in some of the European royal families and their hangers-on, maybe?
Then there were the various nationalities from Americans and Canadians to South Africans and Rhodesians all here to volunteer to fight, so mustn't forget them either. Of course, from 1944 onwards there were millions of Americans, Australians, Canadians, Indians and the rest all here for the D-Day invasion. All immigrants.
You're on to something here all right. I wonder if Searchlight know about it? :roll:
TrueBlueTerrier
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Re: No English, no stamp: Update: He's been sacked

Post by TrueBlueTerrier »

Tman wrote:
TrueBlueTerrier wrote:Those escaping Nazi Tyranny such as the Jews, Polish, Norwegian, Czech, French Free Forces. Some of the most successful Fighter Squadrons of the Battle of Britain were Polish or Czech - of which a vast majority of the survivors remained in the UK after the War.

How about several thousand German and Italian PoWs, by your reasoning they should be included too. Then there were thousands of Jewish kids, how about them? Them add in some of the European royal families and their hangers-on, maybe?
Then there were the various nationalities from Americans and Canadians to South Africans and Rhodesians all here to volunteer to fight, so mustn't forget them either. Of course, from 1944 onwards there were millions of Americans, Australians, Canadians, Indians and the rest all here for the D-Day invasion. All immigrants.
You're on to something here all right. I wonder if Searchlight know about it? :roll:
Now your helping to render your assertion that there was no immigration in the 1940 because there was a war on as incorrect. I am getting confused. If they came from another country and remained here then don't they qualify as immigrants Image. Obviously those who went back after the war don't count.
TMan wrote:[Incidentally, how would there be any immigration into the UK in 1940? There was a war on, remember?]
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Re: No English, no stamp: Update: He's been sacked

Post by Tman »

Now your helping to render your assertion that there was no immigration in the 1940 because there was a war on as incorrect. I am getting confused.
Seems so, but it's called irony, TBT.
I know it's accepted that irony doesn't travel on the 'Net, but when you described refugees and military volunteers as immigrants, I thought I would continue the joke theme. Simple, eh? :roll:
johnsouthwales
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Re: No English, no stamp: Update: He's been sacked

Post by johnsouthwales »

is it fair to class romans, saxons, jutes, franks as 'immigrants' when the were more or less 'conquereres' ? most original british culture vanished with the the romans and anglo-saxons..then came along the vikings.. viking influences were eradicated in 1066.

merchants from italy were in the uk during 14th-16th century. flemish were here too 14th/15th century because of war and wool and cweavering trade, and in 16th century more flemish escaping religious persecution.

french protestants started coming here 17th/18th century, many stayed, others went off to america.

palantines came here 18th century.

so far, up to this point around year 1700, immigration was due to invading parties, and later escaping war and persecution in mainland europe.

around 1800, there was a small coloured population in london due to the slave trade..which numbers declined during the remainder of that century.

during 18th and 19th century, trickles of europeans entered the mainland. coincides with industrialisation??

even though britain had interests in india and the east during 18th century, there was no indian in the uk during this time..

irish immigration due to potaotoe famine.

the chinese trade in mid 19th century paved way for a very small handfuls of people to settle here, mainly through sailors etc.

belgian refugees were scattered abouth the uk during and after first world war.

poles arrived before, during and after second world war..

germans and italians remained here after they were held as prisoners of war.

in the 1930's, immigrants were fleeing nazi persecution.

after the confusion after WW2, britain started rebuilding, the came commonwealth immigration, which was the first organised wave of immigration, which was initaially meant to become a trickle. this seems to be the first instances of tension involved with immigration.

going back to the causes of immigration, it was originally invasions, then escape of persecution. later it became immigration through the industrial revolution.. then it became immigration through fleeing persecution of nazi and war.. then it became immigration through commonwealth connections...

all through history, immigration was in trickles compared to the uk populations of those times. actually, commonwealth immigration was actually coming down after the 1960s and 1970s..

britain didn't really have problems with 'illegals' up until this decade. after ww2, a person would have had to have permits. what happens now is that people are entering uk for economical reasons firstly and fleeing persecution at the same time.

probably what we are experiencing now is something that hasn't been experienced before and has been building up since the 90's. the scale of it, and the balance has been shifted so greatly..

multi-culturalism has been 'forced' on us and to accept it.. up until the 1950's, most uk immigrants have been basically form mainland europe. there were no real tensions. mostly, uk industry benefited from european immigrants with their expertise, and this helped british industries, bringing some of their culture with them.

the culture we have today is nothing compared to up until this point. did the uk have a language problem up until then?

after the 1950's, travel was being accessed easier, and people were catching onto this, even though you had to be quite wealthy to afford to travel. people were going on holiday abroad and for many, it was the first time. and when british people go abroad, they like to bring a little piece back with them, clothes, food, drink, literature etc. they may even marry someone by meeting someone where they had been. but that is usually in small droves now and then, nothing to cause a large scale shift. since the 1970's, britain and it's culture has been influenced by media. the public have always been swayed by some form of media, whether a newspaper or television.. attitudes change over the last hundred years.. our main source of information since the 1970's is the television, and the amount of that information being received by our minds day in day out is astronomical. whether it has benefited us as such, as most of the uk has been influenced by america one ay or the other.

britain has changed culturally. it was a balance in the 1970/80's. it was something new, something exotic, going to an indian resteraunt for example. the uk developed a taste for this, unfortunately a lot were wrecked or abused by british drunks after their night out and had no respect for indian culture. what has actually happened over an evolution, is that they just kept on springing up everywhere. so instead of having the one or two, it became the 5 or 6 and so on. people did not like this. even in europe, people were suspicious of foreign resteraunts, as often and common were stories of chinese cooking cats in their meals... and it was no supersticious tale.. the british public did not like it that eastern people were working here and sending their money back to their homelands to feed their families there.

ok, we learned to live with indians, pakistanis, west indians. and maybe even improved ourselves as a nation.

then came along the iraq war of 1991, and that started another influx afterwards, other disasters were springing up left right and centre. so the immigarants we have are a totally different breed than predecessors. and to put that on top of the European Union freedom of work movement, it is no wonder why they choose the uk as their only priority and first and only option.

the britain we have today is different than the one we had 10 years ago. the one 10 years ago was different than the one from that in 1989, 1989 was differnt than 1979 and so on..... the councils made a right old muck up in the beginning by displacing them into solitary areas, like dumping a population into a random area and letting them get on with it. as britain is either an atheistic society, protestant or catholic, suddenly find their own religion is under threat by mosques springing up. the equilibrium of the was distorted, and the whole identity of britain was distorted.

yes, we all can live with each other or learn to live, as there is only a certain amount we can consciencely learn to live with. governments tell us to respect the moslem. i don't need a government to tell me who i should accept, i can make that decision myself.

regarding the bible, what did god do? god scattered tribes across the lands, and gave them each a different tongue to speak in so to confuse.. (after destroying the tower of babel)..

britain is a nice land. so is germany. europe has it's problems with immigration. people just don't like to be swamped.

but when some wise spark says for people to speak english only, not only was it totally unprofessional and ill-thought, common sense should have been used or maybe a little patience.. then again, people haven't got the time to be patient anymore... maybe that's what is wrong with the uk, we do not have the time as previously enjoyed as part of our culture
and here comes avi cohen! oh i say! at the same end, he's got one back!!