Sacked on a first R.T.U. - Advice needed

[norbert]

only area reps are trained to do RTU's bar the odd Unit Rep , if there is a RTU somebody has to get onto Branch ASAP , I've known quite a few area reps that have been threatened either by local management or Area Managers who were no more than thugs in suits .

it's a very vindictive and a vicious system , no wonder there's such a turnover .

[without_a_paddle]

Believe it or not, I phoned my CWU area rep who will be representing me and asked him
what he thought my chances of winning an appeal were. His precise words were
"None. You've got no chance, nobody's winning appeals these days."
Without wishing to sound harsh, this is the area rep talking and he's got me beaten before
i've even started ... and THIS is the guy who's going to be fighting my corner LOL
Today I told my area rep that I was going to the Citizens Advice Bureau to get some advice
on Employment Law, and again he was very pessimistic, telling me that "it's a waste of an hour"
and that people who go to appeals rarely win when its an attendance dismissal.

[norbert]

Believe it or not, I phoned my CWU area rep who will be representing me and asked him
what he thought my chances of winning an appeal were. His precise words were
"None. You've got no chance, nobody's winning appeals these days."
Without wishing to sound harsh, this is the area rep talking and he's got me beaten before
i've even started ... and THIS is the guy who's going to be fighting my corner LOL
Today I told my area rep that I was going to the Citizens Advice Bureau to get some advice
on Employment Law, and again he was very pessimistic, telling me that "it's a waste of an hour"
and that people who go to appeals rarely win when its an attendance dismissal.

that has to be taken with a pinch of salt , I agree with the Area Rep that you're fighting the RM system which is to get people down the road as cheaply as possible and RM will do everything possible to deter people from making trouble for them outside .

The Union don't like people telling tales either outside the PO , may need some professional to pick RM to bits , they do tend to buckle when the press / media get hold of it , you have to box a bit more cleverly and there's more than one way of skinning a cat .

You may get a settlement to drop the tribunal but you've got to keep your nerve and put yourself in RM's shoes and stay one step ahead .

[TeeferTiger]

it's the women managers that are the worst probably trying to out do people - however they tend to back themselves into corners and botch things , sounds a bit fishy .

I think that's pretty out of order to be honest. All the women managers I know are the better ones.

As for the original post, you've got nothing to lose with taking up the grievance and getting support from the CWU. However, I've seen people sacked for less

I'd also get some proper legal advice as another poster said, RM don't really like it when things are kicked up into the spotlight...

[without_a_paddle]

Thanks once again, I agree that I need to get legal advice. I'm under no illusion that appeals are anything other than lip service, an inconvenience to them at best. Having said that, i've not exactly been treated with the utmost courtesy myself. Sample grievance of several against a certain manager:-

My 17-month old son suffered a seizure and stopped breathing (requiring hospitalisation) while I was waiting for my R.T.U. and when I asked my manager for unpaid Special Leave (2 days), his response was :

"Your wife is at the hospital isn't she? I don't see why you need to take time off work."
"You can't just ring up asking for Special Leave. It's at my discretion, with or without pay."

When you're dealing with this sort of manager (decidedly family UNfriendly) you just despair for the business in general.

[norbert]

it's the women managers that are the worst probably trying to out do people - however they tend to back themselves into corners and botch things , sounds a bit fishy .

I think that's pretty out of order to be honest. All the women managers I know are the better ones.

As for the original post, you've got nothing to lose with taking up the grievance and getting support from the CWU. However, I've seen people sacked for less

I'd also get some proper legal advice as another poster said, RM don't really like it when things are kicked up into the spotlight...

I'll qualify it better - I meant a certain stereotype(s ) , basically the Uber - Bitch type , the 80's type ,trying to be one of the 'boys " and that might have something more to do with the culture from the top down as for bullying there are some statistics to prove that some can be even worse than men though the bullying can take more subtle or insidious forms

I must admit that my opinion is a bit jaundiced after reading IT reports / judgements where the DIMETTE was not shown in the best light .

I agree that RM will try to twist matters or turn things on it's head to make a case out for made in bad faith grievances to close ranks and protect it's managers and it doesn't matter to RM as to exactly how vague or obscure the grounds are and there is a difference between all the PR B/S and the real RM .

[mailsort6]

Thanks once again, I agree that I need to get legal advice. I'm under no illusion that appeals are anything other than lip service, an inconvenience to them at best. Having said that, i've not exactly been treated with the utmost courtesy myself. Sample grievance of several against a certain manager:-

My 17-month old son suffered a seizure and stopped breathing (requiring hospitalisation) while I was waiting for my R.T.U. and when I asked my manager for unpaid Special Leave (2 days), his response was :

"Your wife is at the hospital isn't she? I don't see why you need to take time off work."
"You can't just ring up asking for Special Leave. It's at my discretion, with or without pay."

When you're dealing with this sort of manager (decidedly family UNfriendly) you just despair for the business in general.

When a member of your family is seriously ill in this case your son, you are entitled to dependancy leave and by law your employer should allow you time off paid or unpaid to deal with any family emergency. I would go and see an employment lawyer, they will advise you and you get 30 minutes free consultation. I think you might have a good case, however, a lawyer might be better advising you. Yes, most employees do lose their appeal, but usually, win at an employment tribunal, do not give up and good luck!

[johnsouthwales]

thats what i dont get about the systems. how come someone win at a tribunal and yet lose at an appeal? im sure that the purpose of an appeal is to make sure that the appeal has got eveything right in the first place.. by winning at a tribunal proves that the appeal does not work. jeez

[norbert]

thats what i dont get about the systems. how come someone win at a tribunal and yet lose at an appeal? im sure that the purpose of an appeal is to make sure that the appeal has got eveything right in the first place.. by winning at a tribunal proves that the appeal does not work. jeez

it's to wear people down , a lot of places have down to a fine art not just RM ; though RM takes things to literal extremes , the other term is " managed out of the business " .
The problem is proving what looks blatantly obvious and RM know it . The orders are to keep a lid on bad PR , if they've worn somebody down and nobody takes them to a IT , they've succeeded , politics with or without a small p ; the black art of the possible , a game ( which is all it will be to RM ? ) of chance and contingency and / or " civilized " war .

RM have always been autocratic and regarded themselves above the law , that's 350 years of "culture" for you , they've always been secretive and defensive , ever tried putting a claim in for a damaged back ? .

With :lfo & :cfo you have the worst of the corporate quick fix & lean "downsizing" culture and the worst of the old RM culture with it's pettiness and spite as RM is neither one thing or the other .

RM do tend to operate at the very limit of employment law and their senior managers are quick to put very perverse interpretations on matters . No-one is immune from the system either and RM will stop at nothing to protect that system . :lfo :cfo

[TrueBlueTerrier]

thats what i dont get about the systems. how come someone win at a tribunal and yet lose at an appeal? im sure that the purpose of an appeal is to make sure that the appeal has got eveything right in the first place.. by winning at a tribunal proves that the appeal does not work. jeez

Because the appeal is heard by Royal Mail management.

AFAIK the route is.

1. Dismissal.
2. Appeal heard by Independent Manager
3. Employment Tribunal.
4. ET Appeal.

There is another stage for reps and Union officials "National Appeals Council" or something - this can be at any point in the system as far as I know.

Any knowledgeable reps please post the correct route if mine is wrong - Thanks.

[madelin4]

Thanks once again, I agree that I need to get legal advice. I'm under no illusion that appeals are anything other than lip service, an inconvenience to them at best. Having said that, i've not exactly been treated with the utmost courtesy myself. Sample grievance of several against a certain manager:-

My 17-month old son suffered a seizure and stopped breathing (requiring hospitalisation) while I was waiting for my R.T.U. and when I asked my manager for unpaid Special Leave (2 days), his response was :

"Your wife is at the hospital isn't she? I don't see why you need to take time off work."
"You can't just ring up asking for Special Leave. It's at my discretion, with or without pay."

When you're dealing with this sort of manager (decidedly family UNfriendly) you just despair for the business in general.

I know what i would of done with this so called manager!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Makes me angry!!!! Lets just say i wud no longer be employed!

[krussel]

Believe it or not, I phoned my CWU area rep who will be representing me and asked him
what he thought my chances of winning an appeal were. His precise words were
"None. You've got no chance, nobody's winning appeals these days."
Without wishing to sound harsh, this is the area rep talking and he's got me beaten before
i've even started ... and THIS is the guy who's going to be fighting my corner LOL
Today I told my area rep that I was going to the Citizens Advice Bureau to get some advice
on Employment Law, and again he was very pessimistic, telling me that "it's a waste of an hour"
and that people who go to appeals rarely win when its an attendance dismissal.

I am really sorry to read this thread its terrible to treat someone like this who has put in 14 YEARS ! in a so worthless fashion. I really cannot add anything of value to the replies already given. I would have thought that the stress of your son being ill should have been taken into consideration. The very best of luck for the time ahead and i really hope you can come back and tell us you have won

[k979aaa]

Believe it or not, I phoned my CWU area rep who will be representing me and asked him
what he thought my chances of winning an appeal were. His precise words were
"None. You've got no chance, nobody's winning appeals these days."
Without wishing to sound harsh, this is the area rep talking and he's got me beaten before
i've even started ... and THIS is the guy who's going to be fighting my corner LOL
Today I told my area rep that I was going to the Citizens Advice Bureau to get some advice
on Employment Law, and again he was very pessimistic, telling me that "it's a waste of an hour"
and that people who go to appeals rarely win when its an attendance dismissal.

I am really sorry to read this thread its terrible to treat someone like this who has put in 14 YEARS ! in a so worthless fashion. I really cannot add anything of value to the replies already given. I would have thought that the stress of your son being ill should have been taken into consideration. The very best of luck for the time ahead and i really hope you can come back and tell us you have won

MONEY BONUS JOB JOB MONEY BONUS the cycle of management never has nor will compassion before cost MONEY BONUS JOB it's a vicious cycle and it is vicious!.

[wolfie citizen smith]

In previous threads I have openly expressed my view (which has caused controversy) on how useless certain Area Reps are. Unfortunatley brother you seem to have also yet another power hungry person who wishes not to pursue your case. Unfortunatley Headquaters are aware how hard it is to get Union officals and so these individuals seem to think they own the roost and what ever they say goes.
Contact Headquaters via email and express your disapointment regarding the way your Area Rep has conducted themselves regarding your case, this will trigger a course of events that should involve a Divisional Rep.
Keep on with your pursue of Inappropreate Behaviour from your manager down the Grievance line as you have willingly asked for special (unpaid) leave relating to your heartbreaking childs illness, which this manager has inexcusably denied.
Once again brother I wish you and your family good luck and wish your child a speedy recovery

[norbert]

In previous threads I have openly expressed my view (which has caused controversy) on how useless certain Area Reps are. Unfortunatley brother you seem to have also yet another power hungry person who wishes not to pursue your case. Unfortunatley Headquaters are aware how hard it is to get Union officals and so these individuals seem to think they own the roost and what ever they say goes.
Contact Headquaters via email and express your disapointment regarding the way your Area Rep has conducted themselves regarding your case, this will trigger a course of events that should involve a Divisional Rep.
Keep on with your pursue of Inappropreate Behaviour from your manager down the Grievance line as you have willingly asked for special (unpaid) leave relating to your heartbreaking childs illness, which this manager has inexcusably denied.
Once again brother I wish you and your family good luck and wish your child a speedy recovery

I wouldn't say what you've said about some Area Reps is necessarily controversial , it can cause ructions in their cosy world and their relationships with RM & their members that some inhabit , basically you are dealing with Union stereotypes , just like you'll get Managerial & Blue shirted stereotypes , a mirrored culture .

Basically like some people you are under absolutely no illusions about some reps & the CWU and the Union seemingly turning a blind eye to it , there are some people that know what those stereotypes are and what the levels of " corruption " are , which you'll always get & and there are people that just don't " get it " ; but that's their problem ? .

Basically it's too much politics which you'll always get , with or without a small p and not enough representation of members .

To be fair there are good area reps that simply deal with matters that are simply either right or wrong and they put themselves at risk of being victimized for it .

A mate of mine was rep for UNISON with the county council , he had quite a few successes but he was asked very nicely by certain managers not to stand for reelection as there was a lot of very mediocre but very ambitious managers that he'd upset - the Gypsy's warning if you like .
Sounds very much like RM ?

[b]Basically anything involving tribunals , solicitors is too modern & too much s***stirring or dragging up sh** for some of them BUT it's not always the members that have started the trouble in the first place , I'm afraid the world has moved on , Management are anything but relatively benign , you've a new breed of hostile and vindictive middle management and their subordinates doing their bidding due to all the pressure from on high ; sitting on things is not going to do much these days . [/b]