Sacked on a first R.T.U. - Advice needed

[without_a_paddle]

Hello brethren

I would be very appreciative if anyone could give me advice regarding my dismissal on a Stage 3 warning.

I've been a postman for 14 years, and during that time have had several Stage 1 and Stage 2 warnings, the latter of which
came in July of last year. Unfortunately, I contracted severe 'flu in October and then went off with stress in November due to continued harassment by a manager. My GP prescribed me with anti-depressants and the ATOS occupational health doctor agreed that the stress was caused in the workplace. This triggered my first Stage 3 warning in January. Whilst I was waiting for my RTU interview, my son suffered a seizure and was rushed to hospital, requiring treatment. I took Special Leave and whilst I was waiting for the re-arranged interview date, I contracted Viral Gastroenteritis, which left with with vomiting and diahorreah for a week. I went to the A&E and they told me not to return to work until I was 48 hours clear of any dihorreah.

I had the Stage 3 R.T.U. in February and the manager said they'd give me the outcome following their consideration.
I was kept waiting 5 weeks for a decision, and last Wednesday, the manager told me I was being dismissed for poor attendance. She accepted I had stress, but said that the 'flu in October and the Viral Gastroenteritis weren't linked to stress, so there were no mitigating circumstances why I shouldn't be dismissed.

Although I'd put in a grievance against the manager who had caused me the stress, the C.W.U. advised me not to submit it in case it harmed my case (they thought the manager was going to handle my Stage 3). I submitted the grievance when the Stage 3 was triggered, but now i've been dismissed, the grievance was never followed up, despite the manager stating it would be dealt with at the time.

I'm currently serving my notice and my stress and depression have returned despite being on Citalopram tablets.

Have I got any chance at an appeal hearing?

Thanks in advance.

[norbert]

it's the women managers that are the worst probably trying to out do people - however they tend to back themselves into corners and botch things , sounds a bit fishy .

the bit about ATOS is "interesting" not all their doctors appear to be hacks , I agree to a point with the CWU about not banging a complaint in about the manager , however had he sacked you , you would have had RM over a barrel as he would be " emotionally compromised " , secondly most firms would have the sense to not leave themselves open to petty vendetta accusations / lack of professionalism as a Tribunal may judge that RM did not appear to act reasonably and / or fail to follow their own procedure

When dealing with RM , you have to call their bluff i.e. what are they trying to bully / intimidate people out of doing ( which they'll probably do in a appeal ) , what are they hoping you will do , what are they frightened off , what are the holes , contradictions , inconsistencies , suspicious issues , what adverse inferences can be drawn , also you have to play them at their own game by plotting one or two steps ahead .

The Union want to pick that case to bits , pull RM apart

The worked notice sounds too much like be a good grateful boy , be daft enough to believe it's all your fault and go away quietly , their Achilles heel is arrogance but there's more than one way of skinning a cat , this smells of Area Management pressure hence the delay

Kindest thing you can say about RM & a certain manager is that there must be a a culture of fear , cheers :lfo & :cfo

[Tamsky]

http://www.cwuglasgowdistrictamal.co.uk ... ndance.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If RM have strayed from the agreed policy as per the link above your CWU rep will focus on that.
Your chances of winning depend on the circumstances. Good luck.

PS Dismissals at this time of year are common. Helps meet the Business Plan!

[without_a_paddle]

Thanks to you both for your replies. The manager in question stated in her dismissal letter the following :-

"I believe that Mr _______'s future pattern of attendance can only be determined by his previous record,
which I believe is a reliable indicator."

I think this is unfair as this suggests the manager is applying her own 'balance of probabilities' to add weight to
my sacking. In effect, she's suggesting that it's almost certain I will incur further absences and warnings if the
Stage 3 isn't issued, so therefore because I was off several times in the past year, i'm likely to repeat this

I'm sorry but it just seems like they're throwing anything and everything at me to make this dismissal stick

[wolfie citizen smith]

I am disheartened to here this brother and acknowleagde your pain. This, by the reads of things will go to industrial tribunals and even though you have a 100% chance of winning, the time scale for this case to go to tribunal is a long and ardewus one. you have mine and all brothers and sisters support on this. wish you and your family good tidings. Be stronge along your journey. believe me i've been there.

[rockytony67]

Have you appealed against the decision?

[brothermagrew]

Sorry indeed to read about your personal circumstances but you could give consideration to applying to an Industrial Tribunal for an unfair dismissal case if your appeal is unsuccessful. Whilst being of no immediate help or comfort, I do however draw your attention to the undermentioned Industrial Tribunal. I wish you well and hope you are successful at appeal.


http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... 50_02.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Devlin -v- Royal Mail

[norbert]

Thanks to you both for your replies. The manager in question stated in her dismissal letter the following :-

"I believe that Mr _______'s future pattern of attendance can only be determined by his previous record,
which I believe is a reliable indicator."

I think this is unfair as this suggests the manager is applying her own 'balance of probabilities' to add weight to
my sacking. In effect, she's suggesting that it's almost certain I will incur further absences and warnings if the
Stage 3 isn't issued, so therefore because I was off several times in the past year, i'm likely to repeat this

I'm sorry but it just seems like they're throwing anything and everything at me to make this dismissal stick

RM cannot AFAIK pull that number on you but it doesn't surprise me in the least that they have , they have to deal with the absences in question or in the time period . I've known Area Reps on RTU's pull the managers trying that routine

If a ATOS OHS doctor said you were likely to go off again on a BRF form , that may make it " look straight but there has to be natural justice not guilty by association .
I used to work for a Industry that tried the blank file number on disciplinaries .
So have RM complied with their own procedure ? - This may backfire on RM in a tribunal but RM will try every trick in the book to stop it getting that far to cover for her .

[BELIAL]

Thanks to you both for your replies. The manager in question stated in her dismissal letter the following :-

"I believe that Mr _______'s future pattern of attendance can only be determined by his previous record,
which I believe is a reliable indicator."

I think this is unfair as this suggests the manager is applying her own 'balance of probabilities' to add weight to
my sacking. In effect, she's suggesting that it's almost certain I will incur further absences and warnings if the
Stage 3 isn't issued, so therefore because I was off several times in the past year, i'm likely to repeat this

I'm sorry but it just seems like they're throwing anything and everything at me to make this dismissal stick

RM cannot AFAIK pull that number on you but it doesn't surprise me in the least that they have , they have to deal with the absences in question or in the time period . I've known Area Reps on RTU's pull the managers trying that routine

If a ATOS OHS doctor said you were likely to go off again on a BRF form , that may make it " look straight but there has to be natural justice not guilty by association .
I used to work for a Industry that tried the blank file number on disciplinaries .
So have RM complied with their own procedure ? - This may backfire on RM in a tribunal but RM will try every trick in the book to stop it getting that far to cover for her .

And it's short termism and self defeating ,because everyone in that office and everyone who knows someone in that office will learn faster than greased weasel s**t that the employer is a chancer, and never to be trusted Bunker mentality bring it on

[norbert]

Thanks to you both for your replies. The manager in question stated in her dismissal letter the following :-

"I believe that Mr _______'s future pattern of attendance can only be determined by his previous record,
which I believe is a reliable indicator."

I think this is unfair as this suggests the manager is applying her own 'balance of probabilities' to add weight to
my sacking. In effect, she's suggesting that it's almost certain I will incur further absences and warnings if the
Stage 3 isn't issued, so therefore because I was off several times in the past year, i'm likely to repeat this

I'm sorry but it just seems like they're throwing anything and everything at me to make this dismissal stick

RM cannot AFAIK pull that number on you but it doesn't surprise me in the least that they have , they have to deal with the absences in question or in the time period . I've known Area Reps on RTU's pull the managers trying that routine

If a ATOS OHS doctor said you were likely to go off again on a BRF form , that may make it " look straight but there has to be natural justice not guilty by association .
I used to work for a Industry that tried the blank file number on disciplinaries .
So have RM complied with their own procedure ? - This may backfire on RM in a tribunal but RM will try every trick in the book to stop it getting that far to cover for her .

And it's short termism and self defeating ,because everyone in that office and everyone who knows someone in that office will learn faster than greased weasel s**t that the employer is a chancer, and never to be trusted Bunker mentality bring it on

it's like you've said before , RM play the yo - yo profit game with slash and burn and try & keep a lid on bad PR , RM wasted two years trying for privatization , having people like :lfo & :cfo in charge is like a cat minding pigeons , they're on their way out with their empire builders of the worst kind - middle managers but at the moment it is bunker mentality , scorched earth Nazi War Generals

It takes me back to the late 80's , early to mid nineties with the amoral spiv era , RM already have a bad reputation with Social Sector Employment staff , Tribunal Panels and the NHS , not just in RM offices .

[mailsort6]

Hello brethren

I would be very appreciative if anyone could give me advice regarding my dismissal on a Stage 3 warning.

I've been a postman for 14 years, and during that time have had several Stage 1 and Stage 2 warnings, the latter of which
came in July of last year. Unfortunately, I contracted severe 'flu in October and then went off with stress in November due to continued harassment by a manager. My GP prescribed me with anti-depressants and the ATOS occupational health doctor agreed that the stress was caused in the workplace. This triggered my first Stage 3 warning in January. Whilst I was waiting for my RTU interview, my son suffered a seizure and was rushed to hospital, requiring treatment. I took Special Leave and whilst I was waiting for the re-arranged interview date, I contracted Viral Gastroenteritis, which left with with vomiting and diahorreah for a week. I went to the A&E and they told me not to return to work until I was 48 hours clear of any dihorreah.

I had the Stage 3 R.T.U. in February and the manager said they'd give me the outcome following their consideration.
I was kept waiting 5 weeks for a decision, and last Wednesday, the manager told me I was being dismissed for poor attendance. She accepted I had stress, but said that the 'flu in October and the Viral Gastroenteritis weren't linked to stress, so there were no mitigating circumstances why I shouldn't be dismissed.

Although I'd put in a grievance against the manager who had caused me the stress, the C.W.U. advised me not to submit it in case it harmed my case (they thought the manager was going to handle my Stage 3). I submitted the grievance when the Stage 3 was triggered, but now i've been dismissed, the grievance was never followed up, despite the manager stating it would be dealt with at the time.

I'm currently serving my notice and my stress and depression have returned despite being on Citalopram tablets.

Have I got any chance at an appeal hearing?

Thanks in advance.

I am sorry to hear about your situation. You state that you put in a grievance when your stage 3 was triggered and then you had to wait 5 weeks for your outcome, why was your grievance not dealt with within the 5 week period? I would have throught that your grievance should have been looked at before you were dismissed. I am no medical expert but I would say that your flu and Viral Gastroenteritis could be linked to stress, because when you suffer from stress you might not be eating properly and your immune system becomes vunerable.(I would look further into this, is your manager a medical expert?) You are entitled to appeal and if you are unsuccessful take your case to an employment tribunal. I would also like to know was it the same manager that dismissed you, was the same manager that you put in the grievance against?

[without_a_paddle]

No, the irony is that the manager causing me the stress was going to perform the R.T.U., but I asked the CWU to get
me a neutral manager as I felt that I wouldn't get a fair chance with this guy. As it turned out, the manager who replaced him was no better and the end result was that I got sacked LOL I had the grievance in letter form, all typed up, as far back as November when I went off with stress, but the CWU advised me not to submit it in case the DOM was the same guy doing the interview. When I requested someone else do the RTU, I decided "to hell with it" and submitted the grievance.
I'm still waiting to hear about the grievance, which is more than 28 days since I first submitted it
Isn't time of the essence in grievance cases?!

[mailsort6]

No, the irony is that the manager causing me the stress was going to perform the R.T.U., but I asked the CWU to get
me a neutral manager as I felt that I wouldn't get a fair chance with this guy. As it turned out, the manager who replaced him was no better and the end result was that I got sacked LOL I had the grievance in letter form, all typed up, as far back as November when I went off with stress, but the CWU advised me not to submit it in case the DOM was the same guy doing the interview. When I requested someone else do the RTU, I decided "to hell with it" and submitted the grievance.
I'm still waiting to hear about the grievance, which is more than 28 days since I first submitted it
Isn't time of the essence in grievance cases?!

I am wondering whether the reason that you have not heard any thing about your grievance is because you did not use the interal grievance form, however, this should not really matter because it was put in writing. I have heard of an employee putting in a grievance in writing and it was just ignored. I would chase this up.

[norbert]

Sorry indeed to read about your personal circumstances but you could give consideration to applying to an Industrial Tribunal for an unfair dismissal case if your appeal is unsuccessful. Whilst being of no immediate help or comfort, I do however draw your attention to the undermentioned Industrial Tribunal. I wish you well and hope you are successful at appeal.


http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... 50_02.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Devlin -v- Royal Mail

Is there any way that RM can be tripped up on " Stress at Work " directives / policies ?- RM would s**t themselves ( most places would ) if one of their managers took them to a tribunal - unfair , a rule for one and another for others but that's how it goes and it shows it's more the system and nobody is immune .

Obviously it's coming up to the new tax year on April 1st

[belle smith]

Hello brethren

I would be very appreciative if anyone could give me advice regarding my dismissal on a Stage 3 warning.

I've been a postman for 14 years, and during that time have had several Stage 1 and Stage 2 warnings, the latter of which
came in July of last year. Unfortunately, I contracted severe 'flu in October and then went off with stress in November due to continued harassment by a manager. My GP prescribed me with anti-depressants and the ATOS occupational health doctor agreed that the stress was caused in the workplace. This triggered my first Stage 3 warning in January. Whilst I was waiting for my RTU interview, my son suffered a seizure and was rushed to hospital, requiring treatment. I took Special Leave and whilst I was waiting for the re-arranged interview date, I contracted Viral Gastroenteritis, which left with with vomiting and diahorreah for a week. I went to the A&E and they told me not to return to work until I was 48 hours clear of any dihorreah.

I had the Stage 3 R.T.U. in February and the manager said they'd give me the outcome following their consideration.
I was kept waiting 5 weeks for a decision, and last Wednesday, the manager told me I was being dismissed for poor attendance. She accepted I had stress, but said that the 'flu in October and the Viral Gastroenteritis weren't linked to stress, so there were no mitigating circumstances why I shouldn't be dismissed.

Although I'd put in a grievance against the manager who had caused me the stress, the C.W.U. advised me not to submit it in case it harmed my case (they thought the manager was going to handle my Stage 3). I submitted the grievance when the Stage 3 was triggered, but now i've been dismissed, the grievance was never followed up, despite the manager stating it would be dealt with at the time.

I'm currently serving my notice and my stress and depression have returned despite being on Citalopram tablets.

Have I got any chance at an appeal hearing?

Thanks in advance.

you don't mention the circumstances for your stage 1 & 2. you are not allowed to appeal these at the time of issue but I belive you can appeal them at time of stage 3, I was speaking to our area rep the other week and he told us that he had successfully overturned quite a few stage 1 & 2 warnings at stage 3 level that should never have been issued. might be to late for you to try this, if so good luck with industrial tribunral.

if stage 1 or 2 are overturned you should never have been on stage 3 in the first place!!!

ps. if appealing TAKE YOUR AREA REP unless your unit rep is s**t hot.
Area reps have full time duty realease and know their stuff.