CAN THE LONG RUNNING DIVISIONS EVER BE HEALED

[brothermagrew]

Came across an old but highly interesting article from The Observer in 2003 and worthy of a read for the content alone. It is very plausible that the same old things are happening now!

How two dead rats plunged the Royal Mail into chaos. A vermin problem in one delivery office lit the fuse.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/nov/02/uk.post" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[johnsouthwales]

just read it....

[Martin Walsh]

Having been part of that dispute I think time has healed the divisons within the CWU. But the hatred and distrust of Royal Mail will never be healed.

The London camapign started becuase London Weighting had only gone up by £15 for inner London in 13 years and by just £8 for outer. This is despite the fact that the cost of living had risen signifcantly and everyother trade union had been fighting for a substainial increase in London Weighting.

John Keggie the then DGSP accused us of wanting regional pay bargining and organised meetings against our claim and even tried to get myself and 4 others discplined via the union rules for a letter we wrote to Allan Leighton demanding a rise in London weighting.

John keggie got defeated in the election in 2003 to Dave Ward mainly on the fact he introduced the way forward after the first ballot of the members defeated it and despite a special conference demanding that he had to achieve a load of ammendments to the agreement. Keggie in 2002 surivied a no confidence vote by just one branch in the cwu such was the split in the cwu then.

Those of you who think pay and mod was an unpopular agreement should have experienced the way forwarded. The members rejected the first agreement and the second agreement got through. Some groups even talked about setting up an alternative union. Those PEC members who supported the agreement were removed from office.

Dave Ward from London who along with anglia and south east and south central had led the oppositon to the way forward defeated John Keggie for DGSP . Dave then launched a London wide ballot for London Weighting and a seperate National Ballot on Pay and major change.

Due to the Divisions within the CWU whilst Londoners voted overhwemly for strike action the national members voted overwhemily no it would have been an even bigger no vote had the London membership not had voted so massiverly yes. Royal Mail said to the cwu that the world had changed and the cwu would have to do what they said and accept SDD and mail centre change without any changes.

But the London membership took 2 days offical action which led to the majority of London being out unoffically for two weeks with areas around the country joining th action like southend chelmsford , covertry warrington postmouth. The unoffical action was the biggest since the miners which led to the £26.28 deal and the 5 day week agreement , MTSF 2 and a few other benefits. In additon Londoners saw the biggest London weighting increase in history and a new forumla for dealing with london weighting in the future.

It just shows you unity really is strength.

[norbert]

Came across an old but highly interesting article from The Observer in 2003 and worthy of a read for the content alone. It is very plausible that the same old things are happening now!

How two dead rats plunged the Royal Mail into chaos. A vermin problem in one delivery office lit the fuse.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/nov/02/uk.post" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I also remember that article on the Saturday Guardian front page with the leaked RM battle plans for spying , the disputes were unofficial but RM were looking for something , no matter how vague or obscure , to show that the CWU were in actuality encouraging unofficial action .

A mate of mine from the TUC saw it and said he'd never seen in all his years , such a rotten and corrupt firm , the Union was on it's knees then with the very narrow 1.8% no vote , there was loads of stories re reps and activists being stitched up on H&B often on very frivolous & spurious grounds , they all had the same ring to them i.e. start with a verdict guilty , concoct a charge and work back with " evidence " & " witnesses " .

London saved the CWU but the nastiness carried on for over a year afterwards , lot's of disciplinaries that would be laughed out of tribunals , there was also a lot of managers facing :lfo 's axe too , we'd a couple at work , a very ambitious but very mediocre Area Planning Manager brought back off " Gardening Leave " looking for scalps . He eventually " left the business " after being threatened with a tribunal against him .

I really do think RM were spoiling for a National Strike that they could turn it into a Thatcher V Scargill scenario . Hayes & :lfo got a settlement but the negotiations were bitter and very acrimonious , that carried on into the 2007 dispute .

[Puppetmaster]

Interesting article and some relevance today ,showing some things never change.But now not in all cases but becoming more often the line between Management and Union is Blured.

[IWW Fellow Worker]

Interesting article and some relevance today ,showing some things never change.But now not in all cases but becoming more often the line between Management and Union is Blured.

That was inevitable. The likes of Hayes and Ward are out of touch and should get the same pay as a postman or postwoman.

[dvbuk55]

Interesting article and some relevance today ,showing some things never change.But now not in all cases but becoming more often the line between Management and Union is Blured.

That was inevitable. The likes of Hayes and Ward are out of touch and should get the same pay as a postman or postwoman.

Perhaps we should pay them on results - you know the sort of scale, improve benefits, pensions, shorter working week, increase pay, more holidays (not included if you have to pay for them) equates to a salary commensurate with a postman - fail to get any benefit improvements at all - get perks, pension increments (yes I haven't forgotten those payments), jollies and a pay scale to make a minister blush.

[Martin Walsh]

IWW why have Billy and Dave lost touch ? Its a blanket statement . Is the anti pritivisation campaign out of touch with the members, i dont think so as its is cruical to the members future.

Is the policy on no savings in order to get a national agreement which protects full time jobs , job sercurity and improved conditions is that out of touch again I dont think so. In fact it is vitally important for the future.

Now as someone who meets members from different Branch`s I do pick up that some believe Pay and Mod was a defeat and we were sold out. However when you respond by asking them what are they doing differently now then prior to 2007 and most will say hardly anything. Then when you point out what Royal Mail orginally wanted was things like 2hours flexiblity on an almost daily basis and what they got was 30 mins on exceptional circumstances within a week , and things much harsher things including later starts , monthly pay , harsher conduct and attendance proceudres then they normally accept that it was far from a defeat or a sell out.

I am been in Royal Mail since 1984 and every year they come looking for savings so that was not pay and mod linked and part timers was not included in any part of pay and mod. In the divison I come from we have refused to accept phase 3 and phase 4 has collasped at national level. Senior managers openly state that once again the CWU conned Royal Mail have taken the money and only really introduce phase 1 and 2.

Now Dvbuk where I would agree with you is the handling of pensions. However at the national briefing last October apart from London hardly any other branch`s wanted to ballot and argued that we should wait for the Hooper report. So whilst Dave and Billy needs to be questioned they can hardly lead a dispute if the Branchs around the country are not up for it.

With regards to Pay well I have to say that since Dave became the DGSP we have seen the biggest rises in pay in the history of the CWU. We have also seen the introduction of the 5 day week , with lots of offices now on 4 day weeks. Also the biggest improvements in London weighting and MTSF 2.

There has only been 2 reductions in the working week since 88 . Both 90 min reductions. The last in 2000 under the way forward. Howver getting the members on board for a shorter working week is always differecult. As in deliveies some get time out of the job finishing early , whereas in mail centres some have time bonus breaks so therefore are already working less working hours , whereas for part timers the only effect from a shorter working week is an improvement in pay . The unions policy has been to achieve a 35 hour gross working week since the early 90s. This year it is essential that we convince the members that we need their support to achieve a reduction in the working week to safeguard full time jobs in the future.

So happy to have a debate on facts or opinions but as we entering a crunch period for the union in so much as that either nationally , divisonally or branch level we are going to end up in a dispute and the continiuing putting down of the CWU in my opinion plays into the hand of Royal Mail and destroys the unions ablity to unite and fight the employer in order to obtain an agreement which protects full time jobs for the future.

[dvbuk55]

Interesting article and some relevance today ,showing some things never change.But now not in all cases but becoming more often the line between Management and Union is Blured.

That was inevitable. The likes of Hayes and Ward are out of touch and should get the same pay as a postman or postwoman.

It looks like it's not only those two who are out of touch

[Martin Walsh]

Dvbuk have you ever thought it is you thats out of touch ? I think you have said on here before your not a rep so i persume your negativity comes from your office maybe area and some comments on this site. There are over 140 000 members of the CWU within Royal Mail group how many of these do you speak on behalf off ?

I not only speak to members in Branch`s which reprsent 14000 postal workers and I can assure you that your not speaking on behalf of them. Yes no one was totally happy with the outcome of pay and mod but it was accepted by the membership in a demorcratic ballot of the members and only 10 Branchs actually had a majority of members vote against the agreement.

I accept in some areas pay and mod have had a more significant impact than others. But the truth is in the areas that they orginally really wanted flexiblity within in order to reduce cost they have still not got any co -orperation.

I know both Dave and Billy attend various meetings of members from all around the UK and not only during the AGM season. Whereas in the last two weeks along I have met all the Branch committees within our divison and 22 diffternt office memberships and are doing two more offices tommorrow so believe me when I say I know what the members concerns are and its not fighting a dispute of 2007 its abouts fighting for their future. Royal Mail have moved on and their plans are worse its time you moved on and starting fighting their proposals of today.

There is a good saying YOU CANT CHANGE THE PAST BUT YOU CAN HELP SHAPE THE FUTURE !

[dvbuk55]

Dvbuk have you ever thought it is you thats out of touch ? I think you have said on here before your not a rep so i persume your negativity comes from your office maybe area and some comments on this site. There are over 140 000 members of the CWU within Royal Mail group how many of these do you speak on behalf off ?

I not only speak to members in Branch`s which reprsent 14000 postal workers and I can assure you that your not speaking on behalf of them. Yes no one was totally happy with the outcome of pay and mod but it was accepted by the membership in a demorcratic ballot of the members and only 10 Branchs actually had a majority of members vote against the agreement.

I accept in some areas pay and mod have had a more significant impact than others. But the truth is in the areas that they orginally really wanted flexiblity within in order to reduce cost they have still not got any co -orperation.

I know both Dave and Billy attend various meetings of members from all around the UK and not only during the AGM season. Whereas in the last two weeks along I have met all the Branch committees within our divison and 22 diffternt office memberships and are doing two more offices tommorrow so believe me when I say I know what the members concerns are and its not fighting a dispute of 2007 its abouts fighting for their future. Royal Mail have moved on and their plans are worse its time you moved on and starting fighting their proposals of today.

There is a good saying YOU CANT CHANGE THE PAST BUT YOU CAN HELP SHAPE THE FUTURE !

It's the past that shapes the future, the decisions already made are affecting us now. It is important that we make the right decisions and have the right leadership NOW for the the future. You seem to feel that you have to defend the indefensible and justify what has been decided. We need open leadership, we need to disaffiliate from the Labour Party and we need to get a move on. A meeting of like minds is no meeting at all.

[Martin Walsh]

Dvbuk we have to agree to disagree on what your saying about leadership. I have criticised them as much as anyone when i think they are doing wrong but will support them when they are doing right like the opposition to the Government bill and the policy on no savings. In any case who would you replace them with I am very involved in the CWU and do not believe we have anyone who could step in and do the job better at this moment.

Now where I can agree with you is on the labour party. I actually moved emergency motion E6 at last years conference saying that if the Labour amongst other things attempted to privitise us then we should ballot the membership on whether we fund the labour party at the next election. The timescale for the ballot is the end of march 2009. If you do dont fund the labour party you disaffilate.

Be in no doubt we will be pushing for the executive to action this ballot in line with the above timescales.

[dvbuk55]

Dvbuk we have to agree to disagree on what your saying about leadership. I have criticised them as much as anyone when i think they are doing wrong but will support them when they are doing right like the opposition to the Government bill and the policy on no savings. In any case who would you replace them with I am very involved in the CWU and do not believe we have anyone who could step in and do the job better at this moment.

Now where I can agree with you is on the labour party. I actually moved emergency motion E6 at last years conference saying that if the Labour amongst other things attempted to privitise us then we should ballot the membership on whether we fund the labour party at the next election. The timescale for the ballot is the end of march 2009. If you do dont fund the labour party you disaffilate.

Be in no doubt we will be pushing for the executive to action this ballot in line with the above timescales.

I applaud your action on the labour party issue and I can assure you that there are no personal issues between you and I. Anyone who feels that P&M, 5 extra years on the working life, the denigration of pension rights, the loss of hours to buy down and 50/50 agreements and the introduction of short contracts is good leadership must view things through rose tinted glasses. It really is 11th hour to say stop cooperating now. Opposing the TNT option is the right thing to do, they shouldn't need to be applauded for that. TBH I believe that the organisation of the union at this point in time needs to be looked at and reviewed. The leadership issue is really neither here nor there - we need larger, stronger and independent regional negotiators and organisers NOT employed by RM who will not be following a private agenda but following instructions - they would probably be graduates with business training perhaps retail or a long serving union rep from area or div or in exceptional circumstances unit level - they would not be elected but employed by a regional EC one member of which would be on the NEC/PEC. There needs to be open communication on a monthly basis on the local issues as well as national issues. I realise that this would not go down well at HQ who would be reluctant to relinquish any authority but we need to do something to regain an initiative which I truly believe we have lost.