2009 Pay talks

[dvbuk55]

I couldn't care less if dingo is on the PEC or not - what worries me is the fact that the premise put forward doesn't hold water. Including D2D is not going to preserve full time jobs - if it did it would be for a narrow band of employees.

The preparation and delivery of 3 sets per week is already part of the existing workload within the time scale set out for both full and part time workers so where is the protection for full time jobs when the provision for households is uncertain?

The object of this topic was the 2009 pay talks and yet we have had no information on that - only some airy fairy scheme which does nothing to increase the current pensionable pay.

[BIG AL]

A union is supposed to represent its membership but elements within our union seem to think that having extra D2D are going to save jobs. Well get your head out of the sand as us on the front line are being georouted and duties with 600-800 houses are being put in. We can't cope with the 3 a week we get now let alone 5 or 6 a week. RM will cut jobs no matter what and say well do your D2D in your own time.The 2007 modernisation pay deal was the worst agreement ever as every change being put in is flexability or modernisation. Its no wonder reps are resigning in droves when frontline members are struggling to cope and they attend meetings and are told lets have more D2D or longer delivery spans
Even my manager has said many older staff will struggle to stay in the job with all the changes, never mind if they leave no doubt thier full time jobs will be replaced.

I totally agree with you.
It is the front line troops that will have all the extra pressure put on them,
5 D2Ds no problem; why not 10?
Don't make me laugh,
I am one of the 'older staff', what a joke Seniority now is!

[shelanda]

Already customers are opting out if we don't get paid for them I can see many more opting out

[Martin Walsh]

Tpost lets have a look at your comments that door to door wont save jobs as we have already got 600 to 700 delivery points which lets say prior to automation that is a duty which will stand up.

Now examine walk sequecing and their plan for the future there priority is to maximise the mail which is automated. This is why they have introduced a trial in mail centres which changes the simplified sorting methods to more crash sorting. The reason for this is that it allows more inward to be sorted quicker in mail centres at the expense of outward mail in order to increase automation in delivery offices and earlier.

In additon they have decleared to stream the flow of work in delivery offices of walk sequencing a 60 / 40 split. 60%of mail will be sorted on the first wave ie for most by 7 30 but the second wave 40 % wont be sorted and dispacthed until 11 in delivery offices. No opgs will be allowed out until the last wave arrives in delivery offices at 11 and very little will be needed to be merged into the mail from the start time. More over Royal Mail have confirmed that they no longer want to delivery past 2 pm .

So lets have a look at the current typical delivery postman on a 5 day week starts at appox 6 and goes on the IPS and then the prep and then goes out on a 3.5 hour delivery span and completes his days duty.

Under Royal Mail`s new walk sequencing plan appox 85 % of all mail will be automated due to the second wave arriving at 11 in delivery offices. 15% of the mail will have to be benched merge ie packets etc. Then the delivery will have to be performed.

If and yes its a big if with Royal Mail`s track record on automation they get it right then what would duties look like after walk sequencing.

0800 start packet ips and bench merging of packets. 11. final bench merging and delivery.

We lose the majoity of ips and prep so how do we protect full time jobs ??

Could it be that we increase the work load on D2D unadressed items which are not regualted so are not tied to a 2pm last letter and are not part of the USO is that not a topic worthy of consideration along with a shorter working week may even protect full time jobs. May be its even worth fighting for.

[marky]

yes what about the pay talks was it not agreed last time or last year it would be 1.5%. or did i dream that along with more prep prep part time duties.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

the 2007 pay rise was the 5.4% from 1 Oct 07

the 2008 pay rise was the 1.5% from 1 Apr 08 (which we got in June I think and was backdated)

The next pay review is due for Apr 2009.

[Rommagic]

I have done over ten years at the royal mail now ,i pay the extra so i can have six weeks a year leave.Any chance the royal mail can pay me £400? a week after tax for doing 46 hours a week and three door2doors a week.I am on £360 a week.

[dvbuk55]

Dvbuk its been a long day and I dont intend to get into a war of words with you but I want to put the record straight.

Yes you might work on the shop floor but part of my role as a rep is to resolve disputes aqnd problems when they arise and I frequent numerous offices for instance I am adressing members at one of the largest delivery offices in the country tommorrow morning and then meeting two more delivery offices members to discuss an office relocation and then attneding a mass meeting attended by Unit Reps and members alike. So I do listen and I do know what members are thinking about on issues.

But and there is a but sometimes in elected postions you have to show leadership. Its easy being popular but much harder to tell members what they dont want to hear and thats where leadership comes in. Do you really think that we believe in converting Door to Door into workload just to make the job harder for our members ? If we did tell me why as its been the policy to introudce Door to Door into workload since 1992 have we not introduced it before .

I tell why because we are looking for the right agreement which means that we gain an increase in Door to Door whcih becomes a supplement paid to delivery staff only, whilst protecting full time jobs and making sure weight on delivery is tackled. With regards to Door to Door in plastic sleves management have suggusted this may be something which they might consider as it is used in other countries the problem being is that Royal Mail only want to pay for one item as the 5 will be attached within the plastic sleeve by atuomation. This is unacceptable to the union.

Look Belial , no i cant guartnee that it will safeguard full time jobs but what I can tell you that surely more work being converted into workload will help. Remember currently some areas already do five , where as some post codes only do one or two. Any additionaly work will assist areas in protecting full time job.

Why do you think Royal Mail are opposed to the idea of converting Door to Door into workload. The simple reason is that it would increase traffic within an office and therefore make it harder to achieve their savings and cut full time jobs.

Its time some got real over the challenges we face. Flats machines whilst not working anywhere near what they were bought for are reducing indoor work. Royal Mails trail on crash sorting in mail centres will increase the amount of inward sorted mail available. Plus there was a national meeting on walk sequencing last Friday which confirmed Royal Mail`s strategy for deliveries which will be revealed shortly.

It is for all those reasons why we need to convince the members that now is the time to deal with the issues on Door to Door. In addition Bob Gibson National Delivery Blue print which includes D2D has been adopted by all Divisons as moving document.

I'm sorry that I didn't notice this before. When I see someone as desperate as you are to get the D2D accepted it reminds me of all agreements that have gone west after the fact - "well you voted it in" and always on being given bad advice. You will forgive me for not commenting on Bob Gibson's Blueprint but I don't seem to have seen it - and the inclusion of D2D in the scheme is not an acceptance by the membership to some hare brained scheme which will not significantly increase workload and I don't know from where you get that impression. We currently do 3 per week which is already part and parcel of prep and delivery so is already "workload" in all but name. Just as a matter of interest is the 35 hour week part of the blueprint. Delivery officers would prefer pre-bundled D2Ds with an increase in payment rather than a fatuous plan which doesn't fool anyone.

Oh I'm sorry you've had such a hard day, it must be very trying talking all the time.

[tpost]

Tpost lets have a look at your comments that door to door wont save jobs as we have already got 600 to 700 delivery points which lets say prior to automation that is a duty which will stand up.

Now examine walk sequecing and their plan for the future there priority is to maximise the mail which is automated. This is why they have introduced a trial in mail centres which changes the simplified sorting methods to more crash sorting. The reason for this is that it allows more inward to be sorted quicker in mail centres at the expense of outward mail in order to increase automation in delivery offices and earlier.

In additon they have decleared to stream the flow of work in delivery offices of walk sequencing a 60 / 40 split. 60%of mail will be sorted on the first wave ie for most by 7 30 but the second wave 40 % wont be sorted and dispacthed until 11 in delivery offices. No opgs will be allowed out until the last wave arrives in delivery offices at 11 and very little will be needed to be merged into the mail from the start time. More over Royal Mail have confirmed that they no longer want to delivery past 2 pm .

So lets have a look at the current typical delivery postman on a 5 day week starts at appox 6 and goes on the IPS and then the prep and then goes out on a 3.5 hour delivery span and completes his days duty.

Under Royal Mail`s new walk sequencing plan appox 85 % of all mail will be automated due to the second wave arriving at 11 in delivery offices. 15% of the mail will have to be benched merge ie packets etc. Then the delivery will have to be performed.

If and yes its a big if with Royal Mail`s track record on automation they get it right then what would duties look like after walk sequencing.

0800 start packet ips and bench merging of packets. 11. final bench merging and delivery.

We lose the majoity of ips and prep so how do we protect full time jobs ??

Could it be that we increase the work load on D2D unadressed items which are not regualted so are not tied to a 2pm last letter and are not part of the USO is that not a topic worthy of consideration along with a shorter working week may even protect full time jobs. May be its even worth fighting for.

My office is 60% 30 hour contracts and the rest 40 hour. If ips is to diminish when sequencing machines come in RM will continue to pay us for 3 D2D and perhaps do a couple for free. RM do not want full time jobs as part time employees are more flexible doing overtime as required but no extra pay when taking holidays or sick. Any Agreements made nationally are ignored on a regular basis by local management and trying to protect full time jobs by doing extra D2D would not be popular with staff.In the next couple of years many full time jobs will disappear by natural wastage.

[Big Daz]

30 hour weeks in my office will not feel the pinch from walk sequencing as we dont do IPS have a virtually full sized delivery and the WS machine supposedly only save 20 mins on prep. In a way I think sometimes I may have reduced my hours with a buy down just at the right time. The FT rurals will quite possibly see a reduction in their numbers from 15 to 14 or even 13 as some of them do IPS, take that away and were left with 3 options SWW, AG status or absorb a rural delivery(s). Take a rural out and then those that are left who then have enough work to stay FT got to better than having the balance of FT/PT being in favour of PT. No harm in having PT jobs but they must not be any more than 10% to 20% of the duties/workforce in RM and FT should not be made to go PT unless thats what they want and its via the buy down process, dont let RM get their PT staff for free!

[stokes11eg]

30 hour weeks in my office will not feel the pinch from walk sequencing as we dont do IPS have a virtually full sized delivery and the WS machine supposedly only save 20 mins on prep. In a way I think sometimes I may have reduced my hours with a buy down just at the right time. The FT rurals will quite possibly see a reduction in their numbers from 15 to 14 or even 13 as some of them do IPS, take that away and were left with 3 options SWW, AG status or absorb a rural delivery(s). Take a rural out and then those that are left who then have enough work to stay FT got to better than having the balance of FT/PT being in favour of PT. No harm in having PT jobs but they must not be any more than 10% to 20% of the duties/workforce in RM and FT should not be made to go PT unless thats what they want and its via the buy down process, dont let RM get their PT staff for free!

Why are the questions of D'D's always discussed between only Union and Royal Mail? If they are a Voluntary part of the job. surely it should be put to the vote? Find out what the Membership want first, and then go into negotiations.

[POSTMAN]

DOOR-TO-DOOR

From 'CWU FOUNDATIONS FOR A NEW DELIVERY MODEL'


Consensus among reps and members regarding a new door-to-door agreement will be difficult.

Door-to-door belongs in a new delivery model because it can affect span.

It is questionable whether it should be in measured workload, which would affect amount of prep and delivery time.

Must consider how we tackle the payment issue and the possible automation of the product. (Unit Bonus Scheme?)

Consider reasons why (not simply the ceiling) and how many contracts are currently turned down.

Consider different pricing and posting options, e.g. Monday to Tuesday one price, Wednesday to Friday another price and Saturday to Sunday priced as a premium service.

Communicate the following to members to create a mindset and move things forward:

There will be a new agreement that will go out to ballot;

The number of contracts will increase;

The aim will be to protect an element of pay;

A route into workload will be found;

A balance will be sought that protects pay, jobs and limits the opportunity of the competition; and that

We can no longer afford to refuse work.

[stokes11eg]

DOOR-TO-DOOR

From 'CWU FOUNDATIONS FOR A NEW DELIVERY MODEL'


Consensus among reps and members regarding a new door-to-door agreement will be difficult.

Door-to-door belongs in a new delivery model because it can affect span.

It is questionable whether it should be in measured workload, which would affect amount of prep and delivery time.

Must consider how we tackle the payment issue and the possible automation of the product. (Unit Bonus Scheme?)

Consider reasons why (not simply the ceiling) and how many contracts are currently turned down. Surely a lot of the stress would be lifted if Managent allowed 15minutes pre-prep time (paid ) each morning for door to doors/


Consider different pricing and posting options, e.g. Monday to Tuesday one price, Wednesday to Friday another price and Saturday to Sunday priced as a premium service.

Communicate the following to members to create a mindset and move things forward:

There will be a new agreement that will go out to ballot;

The number of contracts will increase;

The aim will be to protect an element of pay;

A route into workload will be found;

A balance will be sought that protects pay, jobs and limits the opportunity of the competition; and that

We can no longer afford to refuse work.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

We can no longer afford to refuse work.

No we can't but have the PEC learnt that front line posties no longer trust the management and want an agreement with all the details tied down. Don't leave any wiggle room for the bosses and ensure that extra equipment and resources are provided before implementation not 1 year after (and more) as in the SDD agreement.

Limit on weight if not on number of D2Ds

if we get D2Ds based on 2 day delivery which is what appears to be suggested duties will need to retested/replotted as at a minimum it will mean a 50% call rate even on a quiet day or to put it another way 100% call rate for 1/2 the delivery.

Consensus among reps and members regarding a new door-to-door agreement will be difficult.

Well instead of coming up with ideas yourself how about consulting the people who do them and found out what the current problems are and then perhaps we can move forward. There is no point in bringing in a new way of doing things if it ignores the problems of the past, more especially if the will continue to happen.

My feelings on problems with D2Ds.

1. Lack of guidance from CWU HQ on when they should be prepped and what the payment is for,
2. Incorrect Payments
3. Late payments.
4. Non payment
5. Weight on delivery - last week I had 2 (2.7p) and 1 (1.67p).
6. Reserve and cover not doing and walk holder expected to do 5 days worth of D2Ds in 4 days but no extra payment.
7. Late arrival.
8. Inaccurate counts.
9. Quality of D2Ds (most rip easily and need to be folded before posting)

I,ll keep adding to this as this is a pet project of mine.

[k979aaa]

The thing is the union needs input from us all the more the better their is new news on the proposed delivery model in the global news section of the website we all then can evaluate the pro's and con's.