ALL STRIKES CANCELLED EXCEPT BRIDGEWATER

[k979aaa]

Have a look at this http://cluaran.free.fr/debt.html it seem's as the uk is not as good as you think!. And this was before the big bank bail out of £400-billion we are in deep sh*t now!.

[DGP1]

Have a look at this http://cluaran.free.fr/debt.html it seem's as the uk is not as good as you think!. And this was before the big bank bail out of £400-billion we are in deep sh*t now!.

It's still better than that great beacon of capitalisim, the USA

[Night Tonic]

This is all irrelevant twaddle as Capitalism is what we have and what you're stuck with. 50,000 jobs lost is because its a shrinking business, you know, like the telegram.

[DGP1]

This is all irrelevant twaddle as Capitalism is what we have and what you're stuck with. 50,000 jobs lost is because its a shrinking business, you know, like the telegram.

I think your statement might have worked if you said 50,000 jobs lost because of increased mechinisation and not the usual BS of decreasing amount of mail (please read change of counting methods).

[k979aaa]

This is all irrelevant twaddle as Capitalism is what we have and what you're stuck with. 50,000 jobs lost is because its a shrinking business, you know, like the telegram.

No it is because we have management of no vision nor business sence no future for those who don't have any new idea's or ideal's!. I am sure :cfo & :lfo are the alter ego's of some on here will not mention any name's!.

[BELIAL]

Capitalism;industrialization; technological development,and scientific discovery are not mutually dependent . Any accurate comparison of living standards under whatever system of social organization should take into account the major factors that have shaped the development of it's present situation .
Take just one example, time. By ignoring the fact that our "Free market" Western Capitalist "Democracies" began their mass industrial transformation 200 years before Eastern Europe,China and Japan then any attempt at a comparative analysis of the merits of varying political systems and the benefits they deliver , is pure absurdity and errant nonsens

Waffle and tripe. Whilst not ignoring the fact that Western societies have changed over that two hundred years, it would be hard to make any comparitive assessment as those countries which adopted (or in reality for most, had it imposed ) some form of Communism, have mostly given up on it. Yeah, it really was that good then, eh?
Still, you've given another "reason why Communism didn't work", namely it obviously wasn't allowed to "mature" for two hunderd years.

Try a simple analogy.
Take two apple trees; One planted 10years ago and watered from the blue can : one planted three years ago and watered from the red can.

The one watered from the blue can yields much more fruit, Do you think chucking away the red can will even things up?

Simple, but erroneous, as it was you who introduced the idea that timing rather than concept was important....

Of course it would be quite an interesting exercise to compare current living standards in Russia and China with those of the British working class in 1800 Here's a few talking points;Typhoid ;malnutrition ; child labour ;cholera ;starvation ; infanticide ; truck shops ;workhouses ; gulags(sorry, transportation)[

That's an interesting point; have you considered though that Western cultures largely worked to eradicate/outlaw most of what you list? So by your own admission then Russia (USSR?) and China are two hundred years behind the West?
I guess that's Communism for you, always seeking to turn back time....

I don't think I can make it any simpler or easier for you to understand. If you have learning difficulties or suffer from cognitive disability ,either as the result of physical trauma or toxic overload please let us know then allowances can be made and all posts might be tailored to make it easier for you to follow.

[BELIAL]

This is all irrelevant twaddle as Capitalism is what we have and what you're stuck with. 50,000 jobs lost is because its a shrinking business, you know, like the telegram.

Well that's not strictly accurate is it?
Because all of a sudden ,worldwide ,if you remove the taxpayers subsidy from the major banking institutions they all go bankrupt,overnight. Next add to that all the major insurance groups,AIG the worlds biggest,now the motor manufacturers, steel producers,farmers,energy suppliers,transport network,airlines,the list goes on. Remove all state funding/subsidy and see what's left
Of course you may be arguing for State Capitalism or something similar ,but as workers I think we would have to smash your old failed position

[TrueBlueTerrier]

A good discussion here but please do not start being dismissive of others opinions please everyone. Argue your points and present evidence is a good debate being dismissive just starts arguments and flame wars. Lets keep this going ,,,,,,

[Tman]

I don't think I can make it any simpler or easier for you to understand. If you have learning difficulties or suffer from cognitive disability ,either as the result of physical trauma or toxic overload please let us know then allowances can be made and all posts might be tailored to make it easier for you to follow.

I thought you'd moved away from that sort of silly putdown as an answer.
You made a statement re the relative ages of the various systems; surely you must have something to back up what you said?

[Tall Guy]

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Gentle pruning I'm not sure how you've come to that conclusion we've lost 6 full-timers have got 4 20 hour part-timers to replace them but we have still the same amount of duties and still the same amount of hours needed to cover them, it's no wonder that we're so much overbudget but on the up side, we have an extra manager to help cover the walks

And I suppose it depends on what you call 'voluntary basis', but I'm sure the people who've been sacked over trivial matters (filling in HYS forms) would disagree also those who've been forced into retirement because of injuries received at work.

No one has been sacked for filling in HYS forms.

I don't buy the forced into retirement bit either. There will always be some injury arising from manual handling, but I think the levels are lower now than they ever used to be. This is a much safer place to work than it used to be. There were people working with me who would put 40Kgs in their pouch if they could, because that was good for them. At least nowadays you'll be liable to conduct code if you take such flagrant disregard for your own Heath and Safety. Everyone on here says that they all follow the guidelines so what's the problem?

[andy2007]

Many of the posts above seem to hinge on pay being the solution to getting a good service. What rot. Pay alone isn't the answer and dreams of a leftie utopia are just that - dreams. Not mine either, thankfully.

And no British business didn't die because of thatcher. It was already dead because other countries could do it cheaper and Thatcher was sick of propping up industries that lost money. Quite right and good riddance. Many of those industries kept striking until they killed their own jobs. Again, good riddance.

I'm afraid that you've missed the point here. The level of pay (so long as it isn't reduced from the norm), isn't the important factor in getting a good quality of service. However, finding cheaper Staff, who have neither the experience (because they're new, and haven't had time to aquire it) or the loyalty, that a lot of the existing Staff have. Is what's reducing the quality of service.

They are two similar, but different issues. I hope that this has clarified things for you.

[BELIAL]

I don't think I can make it any simpler or easier for you to understand. If you have learning difficulties or suffer from cognitive disability ,either as the result of physical trauma or toxic overload please let us know then allowances can be made and all posts might be tailored to make it easier for you to follow.

I thought you'd moved away from that sort of silly putdown as an answer.
You made a statement re the relative ages of the various systems; surely you must have something to back up what you said?

More of a genuine query than a silly putdown. Not being funny but you do seem to have a wee bit of trouble following a fairly simple thread.
You are kidding about the history of industrialization? surely. There must be 10,000 text books covering the subject from 100 different perspectives. Heres one you'll like, well presented and so far undisputed "The Age of Revolutions". The Japanese stuff is very interesting ,involving the rise of the Tokugawa shongunate ,lots of industrial espionage ,martial law and the mass imprisonment and slavery of huge sections of the population. If you don't know the simple stuff ,I ain't got time to teach you,catch up. It's all historical record and the timing is uncontentious

[borders]

If you've read any of my posts, you'll see that I've said time and again that in my opinion, Capitalism, for all it's known and inherent faults, is unfortunately the only system which seems to even remotely work. You, and many others, may consider it to be an ananchronism and unfair, but then have you considered the lot of a postie in the old USSR or China? I would hazard a guess that your life and life style is probably (at least) ten times better than thiers, and that's the rub; although many may gripe and grumble about the political systems of the West, Capitalism (in whatever shade or degree we've experienced through the last 60+ years) has brought the average Joe a far better life than his Eastern European (living under Communism) counterparts.
Whether that's due to, or in spite of, union influence is open to debate and depends on your political colours, but at least it shows that the "Trickledown" theory (despite TBT's cynicism) does have an effect.
The old yeahbuts of "but those countries weren't really Communist" and "the whole world needed to be Communist for it to work" don't wash anymore either, as no-one other than some hard-line military dictatorship is going down the Marxist/Leninist route any more. It's a discredited philosophy, and usually only desired by those safe in the knowlege that although they may bang the drum for a communist state, they live happily in a comfy Western Capitalist society and that's unlikely to change any time soon.

borders ------do you honestly believe it is the best / fairest system on offer to mankind ?

MR Tman ----No, see above, and certainly not "fair" either

[borders]

Freedom is a myth whatever political ideals you may have but every communist state I know of is oppressed beyond belief. If you really DO want the equivalent of the KGB banging on your door whenever they like, then perhaps giving up the job and taking a slow boat to China may the answer.

you are obviously getting confused with communism and State dictatorship.

[DGP1]

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Gentle pruning I'm not sure how you've come to that conclusion we've lost 6 full-timers have got 4 20 hour part-timers to replace them but we have still the same amount of duties and still the same amount of hours needed to cover them, it's no wonder that we're so much overbudget but on the up side, we have an extra manager to help cover the walks

And I suppose it depends on what you call 'voluntary basis', but I'm sure the people who've been sacked over trivial matters (filling in HYS forms) would disagree also those who've been forced into retirement because of injuries received at work.

No one has been sacked for filling in HYS forms.

I don't buy the forced into retirement bit either. There will always be some injury arising from manual handling, but I think the levels are lower now than they ever used to be. This is a much safer place to work than it used to be. There were people working with me who would put 40Kgs in their pouch if they could, because that was good for them. At least nowadays you'll be liable to conduct code if you take such flagrant disregard for your own Heath and Safety. Everyone on here says that they all follow the guidelines so what's the problem?

There is one in NI that was sacked after the HYS forms were examined by the senior management and the handwriting matched to the person (I could name names but until it goes before an IT I won't) and the forced retirement I know of 2 who where forced into 'medical retirement' because of injuries sustained at work (one on delivery, a trip over uneven paving which the manager said was their own fault and one through bullying by a manager who was subsequently demoted because of it).