They put robins on stamps–why not our sons who died in Iraq

[johnnyp]

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/39The ... 4754318.jp
'They put robins on stamps – why not our sons who died in Iraq?'



Date: 03 December 2008
By Tim Cornwell
Arts Correspondent
FAMILIES of Scottish soldiers killed in Iraq yesterday backed an artist's campaign for commemorative stamps to be issued carrying the faces of their lost loved ones.

Queen and Country, a work by the Turner Prize-winning war artist Steven McQueen, went on show in Edinburgh yesterday as part of a national tour.

It is a large oak cabinet with 120 sliding drawers showing sheets of stamps featuring the portraits of slain service personnel. There are 136 commemorated so far, and McQueen wants the Royal Mail to make the stamps official.

Carol Paterson, from Fife, lost her son, Scott "Casper" Kennedy, 20, a private in the Black Watch, when he and two other soldiers were caught in a bomb blast in June last year.

She said: "I think it's lovely to see their faces. It would be even lovelier to see them on a proper postage stamp."

The photograph of her son that McQueen used is an army picture taken when he passed out at the Catterick base in Yorkshire. "It's just like seeing him again," his mother said.

The Imperial War Museum commissioned McQueen as artist for the Iraq conflict in 2003, and he spent six days at the UK base in Basra. The Art Fund, an independent charity, bought the resulting work, Queen and Country, for the museum.

So far, more than 15,000 signatures have been added to a petition calling for an official set of stamps. A Royal Mail spokeswoman said the " role and sacrifice of the UK's servicemen and women" had featured in special stamps for the army in 2007 and the Royal Air Force in 2008, with the Royal Navy coming in 2009.

"Royal Mail receives around 3,000 requests every year for special stamp issues, but only ten subjects can be chosen," she said. "Therefore, it is impossible to accommodate every request."

McQueen was not at yesterday's unveiling of the artwork at the Scottish National Gallery of Modern Art. He has been busy promoting his award-winning film, Hunger.

Andrew Macdonald, the Art Fund's deputy director, said of Queen and Country: "It really isn't either anti-war or pro-war. It is about our relationship with people who go out and serve with the forces in our name, whether or not we support the conflict."

Diane and Walter Douglas, the parents of Lance-Corporal Allan Douglas, who was killed in January 2006, had travelled from their home in Aberdeen to the gallery. Their son was the last Highlanders' casualty recorded in the Edinburgh Castle log book before the Scottish regiments were amalgamated.

The couple have written to 10 Downing Street backing the idea of proper stamps. "It's reminding people – when you buy a stamp, you see somebody's face," Mr Douglas said.

"We were never for this war anyway. Neither was Allan, but he had no choice. That was it. He had to do his duty. He never believed in it."

Mrs Douglas said the artwork had achieved something for men and women who had been killed, including her son.

"He always said, even before he joined the army, 'One of these days I'll be famous'," she said.

Margaret Thomson slid out the drawer showing her son Robert's picture, taken at his Basra Palace base, astride a camouflaged American Harley Davidson motorcycle. He was killed just a few yards away. "It's very personal, it's very lovely. You just see him there – for a split second, you forget that he's dead, then you remember why you're here, and he is dead," she said.

"They do stamps with a robin on it, a wren on it. Why wouldn't you allow that? I can't understand the politics of it. If people don't want to buy them because they don't agree with the war, fair enough."

PROFILE

Steve McQueen, born in London in 1969, works in London and Amsterdam. He won the Turner Prize in 1999 with a film that included a homage to a famous stunt by the silent star Buster Keaton. In 2003, he was named an official war artist in Iraq. Now his international profile will rise further when he represents Britain at the Venice Biennale next year, the most important date in the 2009 art world's calendar.

With exhibitions in Paris, Vienna and Japan, his fame has extended to film. In May this year, his feature film, Hunger, the story of IRA hunger striker Bobby Sands, won the prestigious Camera d'Or award at the Cannes Film Festival.

[andy2007]

Here's a link to the Petition: http://www.artfund.org/queenandcountry/index.php

There's currently 15,117 names on there. Hopefully, we can increase that number a lot.

[johnnyp]

Here's a link to the Petition: http://www.artfund.org/queenandcountry/index.php

There's currently 15,117 names on there. Hopefully, we can increase that number a lot.

Done Nice one anddy2007

[NWpostie]

added hope it is successful

[Lounge Lizard]

A comment on the Scotsman website about this is "They joined the forces. They took the queen's shilling. Give them nothing. They are not fighting for this country, they are fighting illegally on behalf of a war criminal in another country. They knew the score, they made the decision to play the game." I know that many people will agree with this.

[NWpostie]

A comment on the Scotsman website about this is "They joined the forces. They took the queen's shilling. Give them nothing. They are not fighting for this country, they are fighting illegally on behalf of a war criminal in another country. They knew the score, they made the decision to play the game." I know that many people will agree with this.

I take issue with you on this one.

A Soldiers duty is to obey the government of the day, they can't pick and choose what war to fight, that the reason for Military discipline, they signed on and attested to an oath to serve her Majesty the Queen, her Heirs and successors and obey any Officers appointed by her, the PM also derives his authority from the Queen as she "appoints" him as a PM if successful in a general election.

Do not blame the Soldiers for what they are doing, they are simply doing their duty, blame the Government instead and vote for the Government you prefer instead, these very same Soldier will die for you if the UK is invaded or attacked by extremist, so give them all your support instead not derision.

Incidently this oath is not piffle as it does carry Legal weight as the Queen herself can order the Army, Air Force, Navy and Police to remove the Government if it overstays its electoral mandate and call a New Election to restore Democracy, bet you didn't know that, this Power was last used in Australia on November 11th 1975 to break a Political deadlock in the Australian Parliament this was done by the Governer General in the Queens name.

[brothermagrew]

A comment on the Scotsman website about this is "They joined the forces. They took the queen's shilling. Give them nothing. They are not fighting for this country, they are fighting illegally on behalf of a war criminal in another country. They knew the score, they made the decision to play the game." I know that many people will agree with this.

I take issue with you on this one.

A Soldiers duty is to obey the government of the day, they can't pick and choose what war to fight, that the reason for Military discipline, they signed on and attested to an oath to serve her Majesty the Queen, her Heirs and successors and obey any Officers appointed by her, the PM also derives his authority from the Queen as she "appoints" him as a PM if successful in a general election.

Do not blame the Soldiers for what they are doing, they are simply doing their duty, blame the Government instead and vote for the Government you prefer instead, these very same Soldier will die for you if the UK is invaded or attacked by extremist, so give them all your support instead not derision.

Incidently this oath is not piffle as it does carry Legal weight as the Queen herself can order the Army, Air Force, Navy and Police to remove the Government if it overstays its electoral mandate and call a New Election to restore Democracy, bet you didn't know that, this Power was last used in Australia on November 11th 1975 to break a Political deadlock in the Australian Parliament this was done by the Governer General in the Queens name.

All soldiers must take the Oath of Allegiance on joining the Army. Those who believe in God use the following words: I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs and successors and that I will as in duty bound honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, her heirs and successors in person, crown and dignity against all enemies and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors and of the generals and officers set over me.

Found this interesting article from years back:



As a matter of course, the British soldier, for all offences which are not mere offences against discipline, is tried by the ordinary courts, the county courts, petty sessions, quarter sessions or assize courts, and in all conflicts with other citizens he is treated simply as a citizen.

But that is not all. In England every citizen, whether an official, a soldier or whatever he is, is responsible before the law for all his actions and cannot plead as an excuse that the action in question was ordered by his superior. For example, a revolt occurs. Troops are called in. Legal demands to disperse are or are not issued. The people do not disperse. A civilian official (always a justice of the peace or an urban elected official) gives permission for the army to intervene, or does not do so. The soldiers open fire, there are deaths. The findings of an inquest on those killed come before a coroner's jury which establishes the facts in each case. If the jury decides that the intervention of the armed forces was not justified by the circumstances, it brings in a verdict of premeditated murder against all the participants, including therefore the civilian official who gave permission for the intervention of the troops, the officer who gave the order to fire, and all the soldiers who actually opened fire.

If the civilian official did not give permission for intervention, the consequence is merely that he does not figure in the verdict. Matters remain unaltered as far as the officers and soldiers are concerned.

This verdict of premeditated murder is a formal indictment, on the basis of which criminal proceedings are instituted before the regular courts with their juries.

The English soldier, therefore, is by no means regarded by the law as a machine that has no will of its own and must obey without argument any order given it, but as a "free agent", a man possessing free will, who at all times must know what he is doing and who bears responsibility for all his actions. English judges would give a stern reply to an accused soldier if he defended himself by saying that he had been ordered to fire and that he had had to "obey orders"!

[NWpostie]

Correct, All Soldiers have a duty to disobey a unlawful order.

have you served Brothermagrew ? as you seem to know the oath of attestation.

[andy2007]

A comment on the Scotsman website about this is "They joined the forces. They took the queen's shilling. Give them nothing. They are not fighting for this country, they are fighting illegally on behalf of a war criminal in another country. They knew the score, they made the decision to play the game." I know that many people will agree with this.

The problem with that attitude, is that in order for them to refuse to fight. They would have to prove that the orders were unlawful. When it started, could they have proved it?
Yes, I agree with you that it proved to be unlawful. But it's always easy to be wise after the event!

Personally, I'm disgusted that the war took place. But I don't hold it against the Armed Forces. Far from it! I have the utmost respect for them.

If these stamps do get issued. It will hopefully, make a lot of people think twice, before using such derision about them. It's one thing to think like that, when you only see how many have died on the news. But it's quite another, to be confronted with the faces of the actual people, on a regular basis.

That's why I've signed the petition: People NEED to see the reality of what's happening. Rather than just a few minutes of news coverage, or some statistics.

Remember what happened in America, during, and after the Vietnam war?
War Veterans being treated badly, instead of being treated with the honor and respect they deserved. Because the Government of the time, had f***ed up badly. Why blame those who risked their own lives, while seeing many of their friends killed, or severely injured?
Do you think it's easy being in that situation?
You don't have to live with the memories. But they do!

Aim your derision where it is deserved: At the Government! NOT at the brave men and women, who are doing their DUTY to Queen and Country!

[brothermagrew]

Correct, All Soldiers have a duty to disobey a unlawful order.

have you served Brothermagrew ? as you seem to know the oath of attestation.

Yes with the then 1st Battalion the King's Own Scottish Borderers and before that as a boy soldier at IJLB Oswestry. Took my Oath of Allegiance as a boy in 1971.

[NWpostie]

Correct, All Soldiers have a duty to disobey a unlawful order.

have you served Brothermagrew ? as you seem to know the oath of attestation.

Yes with the then 1st Battalion the King's Own Scottish Borderers and before that as a boy soldier at IJLB Oswestry. Took my Oath of Allegiance as a boy in 1971.

Top Man

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Correct, All Soldiers have a duty to disobey a unlawful order.

have you served Brothermagrew ? as you seem to know the oath of attestation.

Yes with the then 1st Battalion the King's Own Scottish Borderers and before that as a boy soldier at IJLB Oswestry. Took my Oath of Allegiance as a boy in 1971.

Top Man

the Kosbies 5 VCs

[DGP1]

Correct, All Soldiers have a duty to disobey a unlawful order.

have you served Brothermagrew ? as you seem to know the oath of attestation.

Yes with the then 1st Battalion the King's Own Scottish Borderers and before that as a boy soldier at IJLB Oswestry. Took my Oath of Allegiance as a boy in 1971.

Top Man

the Kosbies 5 VCs

The only thing I know about them is they fought at Arnhem as part of the 1st Airborne Division/1st Airlanding Brigade under Brigadier Hicks.

[Lounge Lizard]

Here's a link to the Petition: http://www.artfund.org/queenandcountry/index.php

There's currently 15,117 names on there. Hopefully, we can increase that number a lot.

Online petitions have no credibility, used mainly by those who are too idle to get away from the computer or even find a biro.

[dvbuk55]

Correct, All Soldiers have a duty to disobey a unlawful order.

have you served Brothermagrew ? as you seem to know the oath of attestation.

Yes with the then 1st Battalion the King's Own Scottish Borderers and before that as a boy soldier at IJLB Oswestry. Took my Oath of Allegiance as a boy in 1971.

Infantry Junior Leaders Battalion. I went there once, long before 1971 of course, whilst with AAJLR Towyn to play in an Army Basketball final in I think it was 1963 or 64.