Royal Mail Attendance Proceedures.

[borders]

some people may find this of interest in our present climate ! 17 November 2008



1. Royal Mail Attendance Procedure

We are now encountering many concerns from members who are finding that stage warnings are being issued against them for no reason other than they have breached the standards.

Managers are telling people that they have no right of appeal – hence, like it or lump it. They never tell you that a grievance can be raised.

The facts are that a manager must decide on the basis of your individual circumstances and must record their rationale accordingly. If they just say you have breached the standards then you can raise a grievance.

A grievance is not the same as an appeal. A grievance is to challenge the misapplication of ANY procedure, including the Attendance Procedure.

Your grounds are that the manager has not taken into account your circumstances. Your rep or the Branch can help you if you wish to challenge a warning.

You do of course have an appeal , but only after you have been dismissed.

NB - We would ALWAYS advice you to raise a grievance if you think you have an underlying health problem or disability or an accident on duty which meant you having time off sick. The Branch represent people in these cases and sometimes raise the matter at Employment Tribunals if you come within the terms of the Disability Discrimination Act. Management generally have no other option but to back down and withdraw the warning, once a tribunal application has been made.

Remember , a stage one is the first stage towards your potential sacking. Do not be lulled into a false sense of security. A stage 3 interview means your dismissal is now being considered. Management DO sack people at their first stage 3.

Get advice / seek representation from the Union !

2. Accidents on Duty and the Attendance Procedure

As most of you will know there is a computerised system for recording accidents on duty known as ERICA.

Managers have been known to tell staff that it can take up to 45 minutes to complete and to try and persuade them that it isn’t worth doing.

This is not acceptable. It does not take 45 minutes or anything like 45 minutes!

We are now seeing cases where people are being issued with stage 1, 2 and 3s who had an accident on duty and did not report it. They subsequently had period(s) of sick leave due to the accident and management then do not accept that it was an accident on duty.

It is difficult in trying to say that your manager knew it was an accident later on, once a warning has been issued.

Can you register an accident on duty after the event ??

Yes you can - even some months after - but this is different from management accepting that your sick leave is LINKED to the accident. If this happens to you or anyone you know then we can assist. The main point though is to get that accident registered !

Seek advice from your Branch if you are in any doubt at all.

Can my manager count an accident on duty against me ?

All AODs are normally discounted. The only time it could be considered to be counted is :

 If you were deliberately ignoring a safety instruction having been told about it
 If you were messing around and acting in a dangerous manner
 If you have had a few accidents and they are all the same or similar

There is a separate process that a manager must go through to decide if an AOD is to be counted. Once this process is complete it can be counted for the purposes of the Attendance Procedure , BUT, this still means that it then has to be looked at on its merits under the Attendance Procedure.

We strongly advise you to raise a grievance if an AOD is counted against you. People have been sacked for having AOD related sick leave and we are then faced with trying to get people reinstated on appeal. Thankfully this usually happens.

What if the manager says I am partly to blame ?

No difference ! An AOD must normally be discounted. An AOD is an unfortunate and unforeseen event. Unless you deliberately intended to injure yourself , management must normally discount it.

Also ….

1. Get in touch with the Branch to allow us to register you with the RM Group Accident Scheme and to see if you might have a personal injury claim.

2. Get the accident registered with the DWP.

[darth]

excellent post.

[WHOCARES]

what about an accident on the way to work, as this i understand is a grey area.

what are the procedures, as management do not have to accept this kind of accident, as you were not signed on.

[brothermagrew]

what about an accident on the way to work, as this i understand is a grey area.

what are the procedures, as management do not have to accept this kind of accident, as you were not signed on.

You could also add what about those that come in way to early for whatever reason before their contracted hours and although whilst signed on have an accident at work before their official start time? A would suspect another possible grey area!

[dean41]

I HAVE RECENTLY HAD AN OP DUE TO AOD SOME 13 YEARS AGO .WAS PUT IN THE ACCIDENT BOOK AT THE TIME. TOLD THE DOM WHO IS NEW TO THE D.O , HE COULD,NT FIND ANY OF THE OLD ACCIDENT BOOKS. AM ON SICK AT THE MOMENT BUT AM RETURNING SOON, AND AM SURE I WILL BE PUT ON A STAGE THROUGH NO FAULT OF MY OWN. WILL ROYAL MAIL HOLD OLD RECORDS SOMEWHERE. ANY HELP PLEASE. THANKS

[mal]

If you trigger a stage warning they'll give you copies of your sick record.Go through them with your Rep and highlight the absence that was due to the AOD.If you can show that you were in hospital for corrective surgery due to this then you will be okay.They cannot issue for corrective surgery,although that does not mean they won't try.If they do put in a Grievance because they are not following Procedure and quote the Sawyer reports.

I'll try to pm these to Postman.

[Sandyman]

Yep, sick records go back for a long time dean41. Were you off sick due to the original accident 13 years ago? If so, you should be able to retrieve that information from HR.

As for raising a grievance against a stage 2 or 3, I did that against a stage 2 a couple of years back with CWU assistance and won it. The autosacking trigger point computer at HR + a c**t of a DOM tried it on and lost. Most enjoyable having the DOM do a mumbled humbled verbal apology to me & the CWU rep, and then having to put the correction in writing

The HR system still tried to get me after the next time i was off sick but the paperwork defeated it. Clean record now

[borders]

I HAVE RECENTLY HAD AN OP DUE TO AOD SOME 13 YEARS AGO .WAS PUT IN THE ACCIDENT BOOK AT THE TIME. TOLD THE DOM WHO IS NEW TO THE D.O , HE COULD,NT FIND ANY OF THE OLD ACCIDENT BOOKS. AM ON SICK AT THE MOMENT BUT AM RETURNING SOON, AND AM SURE I WILL BE PUT ON A STAGE THROUGH NO FAULT OF MY OWN. WILL ROYAL MAIL HOLD OLD RECORDS SOMEWHERE. ANY HELP PLEASE. THANKS

i believe you can request your sick record , by ringing HR Sheffield, the number is on the back of your payslip.

[dean41]

MANY THANKS FOR THE REPLIES .YES WAS OFF SICK DUE TO AOD, HAVE RANG HR AS WELL. CHEERS DEAN41

[wolfie citizen smith]

some people may find this of interest in our present climate ! 17 November 2008



1. Royal Mail Attendance Procedure

We are now encountering many concerns from members who are finding that stage warnings are being issued against them for no reason other than they have breached the standards.

Managers are telling people that they have no right of appeal – hence, like it or lump it. They never tell you that a grievance can be raised.

The facts are that a manager must decide on the basis of your individual circumstances and must record their rationale accordingly. If they just say you have breached the standards then you can raise a grievance.

A grievance is not the same as an appeal. A grievance is to challenge the misapplication of ANY procedure, including the Attendance Procedure.

Your grounds are that the manager has not taken into account your circumstances. Your rep or the Branch can help you if you wish to challenge a warning.

You do of course have an appeal , but only after you have been dismissed.

NB - We would ALWAYS advice you to raise a grievance if you think you have an underlying health problem or disability or an accident on duty which meant you having time off sick. The Branch represent people in these cases and sometimes raise the matter at Employment Tribunals if you come within the terms of the Disability Discrimination Act. Management generally have no other option but to back down and withdraw the warning, once a tribunal application has been made.

Remember , a stage one is the first stage towards your potential sacking. Do not be lulled into a false sense of security. A stage 3 interview means your dismissal is now being considered. Management DO sack people at their first stage 3.

Get advice / seek representation from the Union !

2. Accidents on Duty and the Attendance Procedure

As most of you will know there is a computerised system for recording accidents on duty known as ERICA.

Managers have been known to tell staff that it can take up to 45 minutes to complete and to try and persuade them that it isn’t worth doing.

This is not acceptable. It does not take 45 minutes or anything like 45 minutes!

We are now seeing cases where people are being issued with stage 1, 2 and 3s who had an accident on duty and did not report it. They subsequently had period(s) of sick leave due to the accident and management then do not accept that it was an accident on duty.

It is difficult in trying to say that your manager knew it was an accident later on, once a warning has been issued.

Can you register an accident on duty after the event ??

Yes you can - even some months after - but this is different from management accepting that your sick leave is LINKED to the accident. If this happens to you or anyone you know then we can assist. The main point though is to get that accident registered !

Seek advice from your Branch if you are in any doubt at all.

Can my manager count an accident on duty against me ?

All AODs are normally discounted. The only time it could be considered to be counted is :

 If you were deliberately ignoring a safety instruction having been told about it
 If you were messing around and acting in a dangerous manner
 If you have had a few accidents and they are all the same or similar

There is a separate process that a manager must go through to decide if an AOD is to be counted. Once this process is complete it can be counted for the purposes of the Attendance Procedure , BUT, this still means that it then has to be looked at on its merits under the Attendance Procedure.

We strongly advise you to raise a grievance if an AOD is counted against you. People have been sacked for having AOD related sick leave and we are then faced with trying to get people reinstated on appeal. Thankfully this usually happens.

What if the manager says I am partly to blame ?

No difference ! An AOD must normally be discounted. An AOD is an unfortunate and unforeseen event. Unless you deliberately intended to injure yourself , management must normally discount it.

Also ….

1. Get in touch with the Branch to allow us to register you with the RM Group Accident Scheme and to see if you might have a personal injury claim.

2. Get the accident registered with the DWP.

I believe you are right in what you have put borders apart from the branch helping part. I have had to go through the divisional rep because my area rep seemed more concern in saving his own posistion by agreeing with yet another manager I have never seen before.
My divisional Rep agreed with me saying that my stage 1 should not have been issued, this stage was an A.O.D causing me to undergo surgery because of the failings of my line manager not looking out for my safety at work, this has been registered as an Industrial Injury and ironicly this line manager was the investigating manager into my A.O.D which is why I believe it was issued.
My stage 2 was issued, however this A.O.D has been registered wrongly on my attendance record and I am covered by the DDA on this case, this also has been registered as an Industrial Injury.
My stage 3 was discounted but reverted back to a stage 2 because of the DDA covering my Industrial Injury.
I have had my grievance running for well over a year and has taken the divisional rep to finally get the ball rolling.
I am in the process of reporting to headquaters my area rep for misrepresentation, however even though my divisional rep agrees in princable that the area rep was wrong in what they done, the divisional rep can not report or putdown the area rep, crazy I know

[borders]

wolfie, sorry to hear about your problems, the article i posted up was from our area CWU secretary, so its contents are taken from the CWU. i thought it would give people a good idea as to where they stand regarding Attendance Proceedures etc, as i know in my area a lot of people are being put on stages when it is very dubious that they should be ? i would like to see the top CWU boys being more pro- active regarding this but it seems to be a big grey area.

[wolfie citizen smith]

wolfie, sorry to hear about your problems, the article i posted up was from our area CWU secretary, so its contents are taken from the CWU. i thought it would give people a good idea as to where they stand regarding Attendance Proceedures etc, as i know in my area a lot of people are being put on stages when it is very dubious that they should be ? i would like to see the top CWU boys being more pro- active regarding this but it seems to be a big grey area.

Thanks for your support and sorry if it read that i was having a go, the article made good reading there was some great advise for all those people out there having the same sort of issues as I

[borders]

didnt think you were having a go Wolfie , just thought i had better clarify my post , i hope you sort your problem out soon.