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the end is near?? stormy times ahead

Latest Royal Mail and CWU news.This is an open forum.
BELIAL
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the end is near?? stormy times ahead

Post by BELIAL »

Excellent common sense article, can't disagree with any of that analysis.

Thanks for that Borders :Applause

Interesting times ahead given that the market meltdown to date is just the tip of the iceberg. Even if the market returned to normal next week ,working people are going to be forced to pay for this system "failure" for decades.
Wonder if the lights will be still on at xmas?
Bye
Night Tonic
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Post by Night Tonic »

Read in a newspaper recently that the downturn wouldn't be so bad and we could cut out chops and just buy mince or skip the £10 wine and buy the £3.99 one. All good advice except what happens to those that have been doing that for years?
Don't believe everything you're told in the rest room
dvbuk55
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Post by dvbuk55 »

Night Tonic wrote:Read in a newspaper recently that the downturn wouldn't be so bad and we could cut out chops and just buy mince or skip the £10 wine and buy the £3.99 one. All good advice except what happens to those that have been doing that for years?
Let them eat cake! - oh and get the guillotine ready. I'm taking up knitting and I already have a mop cap somewhere BUT someone is going to have to lend me a clay pipe and some herbal tobacco.
BELIAL
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Post by BELIAL »

I wonder If we'll win the next war against Iceland? :cry
Bye
baldrick
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the end is near?? stormy times ahead

Post by baldrick »

Trouble is they've got a big mate now (Russia). :nervous
borders
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Post by borders »

Tman wrote:
TrueBlueTerrier wrote:I don't know what the Luddites achieved specifically but there is an argument that they were one of the first Working Class Political movements. Also they had at least one well known supporter.
Seems like Byron may have been a fore-runner of the likes of Billy Bragg and Paul Weller then? Happy to call for socialist values in society, while enjoying a society which is anything but?
Hardly call the Luddites a "Working Class Political movement". A group of starving unemployed textile workers maybe, but the obvious outcome was that the workers then benefited from cheaply produced hygenic washable cotton clothing.
Left wingers everywhere and society in general should applaud that outcome, surely?
The 1799 "Combination Acts" banned trade unionism and allowed magistrates to send "offenders" to jail without trial. This drove working class resistance underground. It was these circumstances that gave rise to the Luddite movement of 1811-12. Today right wingers attack workers who resist being thrown on the scrap heap as against "progress", and as "Luddites". But, like today's workers, the original Luddites were right to fight. Luddism was a organised movement against starvation wages and intolerable working conditions.
"why should it just be the bankers, politicians and the idle rich who get all the best things ? we demand a standard of living for our members that enables them to share in the fine wines and times that the likes of Cameron and his Eton buddies take for granted " - the late great Bob Crow RIP.
borders
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Post by borders »

Tman , you are correct in as much as the Luddites themselves achieved very little, but this was another period of class struggle and during this period of 1799 till 1824 trade unions were basically illegal . The legislation remained in force until they were repealed in 1824. This was followed by an outbreak of strikes and as a result ,further legislation was passed. The 1825 Combination Act narrowly defined the rights of trade unions as meeting to bargain over wages and conditions. Anything outside these limits was liable to prosecution as criminal conspiracy in restraint of trade.so you can see this is our working class history, born out of struggles, such as the Luddites and others participated in , came Trade Unionism, not very important or worthwhile to you maybe but a big achievement and certainly worthwhile to me. P.S , not sourced from the SWP !!!
"why should it just be the bankers, politicians and the idle rich who get all the best things ? we demand a standard of living for our members that enables them to share in the fine wines and times that the likes of Cameron and his Eton buddies take for granted " - the late great Bob Crow RIP.
Tman
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Post by Tman »

borders wrote:Tman , you are correct in as much as the Luddites themselves achieved very little, but this was another period of class struggle and during this period of 1799 till 1824 trade unions were basically illegal . The legislation remained in force until they were repealed in 1824. This was followed by an outbreak of strikes and as a result ,further legislation was passed. The 1825 Combination Act narrowly defined the rights of trade unions as meeting to bargain over wages and conditions. Anything outside these limits was liable to prosecution as criminal conspiracy in restraint of trade.so you can see this is our working class history, born out of struggles, such as the Luddites and others participated in , came Trade Unionism, not very important or worthwhile to you maybe but a big achievement and certainly worthwhile to me. P.S , not sourced from the SWP !!!
All good stuff, but the Luddites was/were a very narrow and specific aspect of the growing problems caused (for some) by the Industrial Revolution. Their grievances were entirely understandable, but their actions were wrong hence the association even today with the term "Luddite" for someone opposed to technological change.
You have to feel for the poor devils, but that is no reason to lump them in with other contemporary progressive movements or actions, or to "celebrate" thier cause as if it was somehow worthy.
borders
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Post by borders »

i would like to re- emphasis this part of one of my posts , i embrace technology, hopefully it will help us all to a 35 hour week one day !!?? ------ " Their methods were simple and direct, and reflected the primitive stage of the class struggle. But they could not win, as it was not a question of the destruction of the means of production, but of their ownership and control. Today the working class does not seek to destroy machines or capital, but seeks to expropriate them in the interests of all. In fact, it is the capitalists who are the modern-day Luddites, as it is they who close down factories at the drop of a hat, throwing millions onto the scrap heap."
"why should it just be the bankers, politicians and the idle rich who get all the best things ? we demand a standard of living for our members that enables them to share in the fine wines and times that the likes of Cameron and his Eton buddies take for granted " - the late great Bob Crow RIP.
Tman
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Post by Tman »

Today the working class does not seek to destroy machines or capital, but seeks to expropriate them in the interests of all.
You sure? Whoever the "working class" are, they certainly don't seek anything in unison, and I've never heard of anyone exhorting me to expropriate anything. If these machines or capital were to be expropriated, that would only be the start of the problems.....

In fact, it is the capitalists who are the modern-day Luddites, as it is they who close down factories at the drop of a hat, throwing millions onto the scrap heap
That doesn't make sense, does it? Capitalists exist solely to make money (in the simplistic world) so why would they "close down factories at the drop of a hat" if they were making money? Unless they were those factories (typically in the old Soviet Bloc) making products so bad no-one wanted to buy them?
Witness the old West Germany making VW Golfs sold world-wide, and the old East Germany making Trabants out of papier mache with little smelly two-stroke engines.
Communism in a nut-shell.
borders
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the end is near?? stormy times ahead

Post by borders »

Tman wrote:
Today the working class does not seek to destroy machines or capital, but seeks to expropriate them in the interests of all.
You sure? Whoever the "working class" are, they certainly don't seek anything in unison, and I've never heard of anyone exhorting me to expropriate anything. If these machines or capital were to be expropriated, that would only be the start of the problems.....

In fact, it is the capitalists who are the modern-day Luddites, as it is they who close down factories at the drop of a hat, throwing millions onto the scrap heap
That doesn't make sense, does it? Capitalists exist solely to make money (in the simplistic world) so why would they "close down factories at the drop of a hat" if they were making money? Unless they were those factories (typically in the old Soviet Bloc) making products so bad no-one wanted to buy them?
Witness the old West Germany making VW Golfs sold world-wide, and the old East Germany making Trabants out of papier mache with little smelly two-stroke engines.
Communism in a nut-shell.
Expropriation refers to confiscation of private property with the stated purpose of establishing social equality. This is a politically motivated and forceful redistribution of private property, taking wealth from the rich to feed the poor in order to establish social justice. wheres the problem in that :dance
"why should it just be the bankers, politicians and the idle rich who get all the best things ? we demand a standard of living for our members that enables them to share in the fine wines and times that the likes of Cameron and his Eton buddies take for granted " - the late great Bob Crow RIP.
BELIAL
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Post by BELIAL »

borders wrote:
Tman wrote:
Today the working class does not seek to destroy machines or capital, but seeks to expropriate them in the interests of all.
You sure? Whoever the "working class" are, they certainly don't seek anything in unison, and I've never heard of anyone exhorting me to expropriate anything. If these machines or capital were to be expropriated, that would only be the start of the problems.....

In fact, it is the capitalists who are the modern-day Luddites, as it is they who close down factories at the drop of a hat, throwing millions onto the scrap heap
That doesn't make sense, does it? Capitalists exist solely to make money (in the simplistic world) so why would they "close down factories at the drop of a hat" if they were making money? Unless they were those factories (typically in the old Soviet Bloc) making products so bad no-one wanted to buy them?
Witness the old West Germany making VW Golfs sold world-wide, and the old East Germany making Trabants out of papier mache with little smelly two-stroke engines.
Communism in a nut-shell.
Expropriation refers to confiscation of private property with the stated purpose of establishing social equality. This is a politically motivated and forceful redistribution of private property, taking wealth from the rich to feed the poor in order to establish social justice. wheres the problem in that :dance
The answer depends on if you think of yourself as a"have" or a "have not", Watch this space though cos most people are going to be forced to reconsider :chuckle
Bye
BELIAL
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Post by BELIAL »

"No more Working class" :left: :left: Saundersite :left: :left: Oops global depression and collapse of free market finance system :left: :left: :left:
Bye
borders
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Post by borders »

The world financial system is teetering on the "brink of systemic meltdown", the head of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) has warned in Washington.

Dominique Strauss-Kahn said the crisis was being fanned by fears over debt-ridden banks but added rich nations had so far failed to restore confidence.

He spoke after talks with US President George W Bush, Group of Seven (G7) finance ministers and the World Bank.

Mr Bush said the global economic crisis needed a united international response.

Speaking in the US capital on Saturday, Mr Strauss-Kahn said: "Intensifying solvency concerns about a number of the largest US-based and European financial institutions have pushed the global financial system to the brink of systemic meltdown."



George Bush says the US will lead the response to the crisis
The IMF chief was joined at the White House by finance ministers from the G7 most-industrialised nations (the US, Canada, France, Germany, Britain, Italy and Japan), as well as World Bank President Robert Zoellick.

Following talks with the economic leaders, Mr Bush said: "We must ensure the actions of one country do not contradict or undermine the actions of another.

"In an interconnected world, no nation will gain by driving down the fortunes of another. We are in this together. We will come through it together."

Panic selling

The meeting came a day after Asian, European and US markets continued to panic sell despite rate cuts and cash injections by central banks, amid widespread fears of a global recession.

Late on Friday, US Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said the US planned to invest directly in banks for the first since the 1930s, following a similar UK programme of partial bank nationalisation.

The G7 had earlier not ruled out adopting another part of the British plan - to guarantee borrowing between banks - as they issued a five-point communique in Washington.


[We must] redirect the markets so that they serve the people, and not ruin them

The finance ministers also pledged to free up the flow of credit, back efforts by banks to raise money and revive the mortgage market.

And the G7 left the door open to further reductions in interest rates, which six central banks this week jointly cut by half a percentage point.

But BBC economics correspondent Andrew Walker, in Washington, says there is some disappointment that the G7 plan lacks detail.

Meanwhile, French President Nicolas Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel said there would be no joint financial rescue fund for Europe, like the US bail-out of Wall Street.

The two leaders said a common approach to the financial crisis would emerge from a Paris summit on Sunday of 15 eurozone leaders.

UK Prime Minister Gordon Brown will hold talks with Mr Sarkozy in the French capital before the meeting.

Chancellor Merkel said governments must "redirect the markets so they serve the people, and not ruin them."

The heads of the EU's four biggest economies - Britain, France, Germany and Italy - held a first crisis summit last week, but were split over the need for a common plan.

Analysts say another week of plunging stock markets has focused minds and the real test of this weekend's scramble by world leaders to shore up the international financial system will come once markets reopen again on Monday
"why should it just be the bankers, politicians and the idle rich who get all the best things ? we demand a standard of living for our members that enables them to share in the fine wines and times that the likes of Cameron and his Eton buddies take for granted " - the late great Bob Crow RIP.
borders
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Post by borders »

thats an article from the BBC, maybe another whip round is in order !!!
"why should it just be the bankers, politicians and the idle rich who get all the best things ? we demand a standard of living for our members that enables them to share in the fine wines and times that the likes of Cameron and his Eton buddies take for granted " - the late great Bob Crow RIP.