Night Tonic wrote:Now that IS extreme. When have you ever known a situation when we don't see-saw between the two main parties? I strongly beiieve that people matter more than money but every time we've had any kind of labour government (present accepted cos they're more Tory), they just fizzle out and the other lot come in. Anyway, at the moment whether you choose Tory or Labour, it won't help postal services will it. Don't be deluded by Hutton either. It just means that they'll mess with the regulations again but they won't reverse it.
at last a post that i totally agree with !!! all the main parties are wedded to the Capitalist system , Labour throughout its history has only ever been a reformist party , tinkering with the sysytem a little . when it comes to the crunch of either a Labour or Tory Government it is the Labour government for me every time, but they are only the lesser of two evils IMO.
"why should it just be the bankers, politicians and the idle rich who get all the best things ? we demand a standard of living for our members that enables them to share in the fine wines and times that the likes of Cameron and his Eton buddies take for granted " - the late great Bob Crow RIP.
Tman wrote:. in Venezuela and latin america , at this moment in time there is a class struggle of epic proportions , revolutionary in fact. many poor countries in the world are questioning Capitalism . while the rich countries continue to compete against each other economically and military ,it puts great pressure on their hegemony. the working class has shown its dissatisfaction in the past and it will do so in the future and to say things will never change ,
Latin America, eh?
Poor example really; whether the rulers of these desparate countries class themselves as Left or Right wing matters not a jot to the poor devils who live there, as their struggle to survive is the same whoever is in charge.
Hyper inflation, endemic corruption, death squads, they've got the lot.
I expect they learnt many years ago that "class struggles" are only for the "educated" inhabitants of wealthy Western European democracies to crap on about over half of cider, whereas for them "struggle" means feeding the family from day to day.
the poor people and the peasants are supporting Chavez and the right wing fascists are supporting the Oligarchy who are trying to re- take power. Chavez is left wing and when the poor little devils as you like to put it are prepared to give up their lives to support his Government i guess you would say that it DOES matter a jot to them. this is the class struggle happening in Venezuela now --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Latin America's occupied factories and enterprises represent the development of one of the most advanced strategies in defense of the working class and resistance against capitalism and neoliberalism. This new phenomenon catching hold throughout Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay and Venezuela continues to grow despite market challenges. More than 30,000 Latin American workers are employed at cooperative-run businesses, which were closed down by bosses and reopened by employees.
In Venezuela alone, it is estimated that 1,200 business and factories have been occupied by their workers after bosses and owners abandoned them [1]. In response to the Bolivarian revolution, many oligarchic and foreign investors have fled Venezuela leaving workers out to dry. Venezuela's working class has stood up to the destiny of unemployment and helped to build a road to socialism: taking over ransacked companies, calling for the nationalization and implementing worker self-management. Since 2005, the Venezuelan government passed a number of legal decrees expropriating abandoned factories for workers to start up production. Today in Venezuela some 20 companies have been nationalized and function under worker co-management or control."
That's why I didn't criticise that part. It's an extreme example. But it perfectly illustrates an important point: It's possible (though very hard) to come back from the brink of disaster. By implementing Socialist policies and values.
Andy, not sure what you mean by extreme example ??
"why should it just be the bankers, politicians and the idle rich who get all the best things ? we demand a standard of living for our members that enables them to share in the fine wines and times that the likes of Cameron and his Eton buddies take for granted " - the late great Bob Crow RIP.
-"Latin America's occupied factories and enterprises represent the development of one of the most advanced strategies in defense of the working class and resistance against capitalism and neoliberalism. This new phenomenon catching hold throughout Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay and Venezuela continues to grow despite market challenges. More than 30,000 Latin American workers are employed at cooperative-run businesses, which were closed down by bosses and reopened by employees.
In Venezuela alone, it is estimated that 1,200 business and factories have been occupied by their workers after bosses and owners abandoned them [1]. In response to the Bolivarian revolution, many oligarchic and foreign investors have fled Venezuela leaving workers out to dry. Venezuela's working class has stood up to the destiny of unemployment and helped to build a road to socialism: taking over ransacked companies, calling for the nationalization and implementing worker self-management. Since 2005, the Venezuelan government passed a number of legal decrees expropriating abandoned factories for workers to start up production. Today in Venezuela some 20 companies have been nationalized and function under worker co-management or control.
What's the source though? SWP again? All sounds great, but I wonder what the reality is?
Never been a country yet which has prospered (by any recognised standard) under the banner of Marxism (or whatever the flavour of the month is) especially so in Latin America.
Truth is they'd all swap thier lives in a heartbeat to flip burgers in the great Capitalist hell-hole to the North.. .. and they do..
Probably cheesed off with getting disappeared by US funded death squads ; or dismembered by US funded car bombs; or sunk by US planted mines ,well you would wouldn't you
Tman wrote:. in Venezuela and latin america , at this moment in time there is a class struggle of epic proportions , revolutionary in fact. many poor countries in the world are questioning Capitalism . while the rich countries continue to compete against each other economically and military ,it puts great pressure on their hegemony. the working class has shown its dissatisfaction in the past and it will do so in the future and to say things will never change ,
Latin America, eh?
Poor example really; whether the rulers of these desparate countries class themselves as Left or Right wing matters not a jot to the poor devils who live there, as their struggle to survive is the same whoever is in charge.
Hyper inflation, endemic corruption, death squads, they've got the lot.
I expect they learnt many years ago that "class struggles" are only for the "educated" inhabitants of wealthy Western European democracies to crap on about over half of cider, whereas for them "struggle" means feeding the family from day to day.
the poor people and the peasants are supporting Chavez and the right wing fascists are supporting the Oligarchy who are trying to re- take power. Chavez is left wing and when the poor little devils as you like to put it are prepared to give up their lives to support his Government i guess you would say that it DOES matter a jot to them. this is the class struggle happening in Venezuela now --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Latin America's occupied factories and enterprises represent the development of one of the most advanced strategies in defense of the working class and resistance against capitalism and neoliberalism. This new phenomenon catching hold throughout Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay and Venezuela continues to grow despite market challenges. More than 30,000 Latin American workers are employed at cooperative-run businesses, which were closed down by bosses and reopened by employees.
In Venezuela alone, it is estimated that 1,200 business and factories have been occupied by their workers after bosses and owners abandoned them [1]. In response to the Bolivarian revolution, many oligarchic and foreign investors have fled Venezuela leaving workers out to dry. Venezuela's working class has stood up to the destiny of unemployment and helped to build a road to socialism: taking over ransacked companies, calling for the nationalization and implementing worker self-management. Since 2005, the Venezuelan government passed a number of legal decrees expropriating abandoned factories for workers to start up production. Today in Venezuela some 20 companies have been nationalized and function under worker co-management or control."
That's why I didn't criticise that part. It's an extreme example. But it perfectly illustrates an important point: It's possible (though very hard) to come back from the brink of disaster. By implementing Socialist policies and values.
Andy, not sure what you mean by extreme example ??
The conditions they are dealing with there, are far worse than what we have here. That's what I meant by an extreme example. As the quote stated: at this moment in time there is a class struggle of epic proportions , revolutionary in fact.
Even with the Credit Crunch, Inflation, etc.. We're a long way from reaching a point where we have an epic Class struggle.
Don't knock Insanity
it's just another outlook on Reality!
Tman, not sourced from the SWP just information out there on the internet. Andy, i now understand what you mean . i am not trying to compare Britain with any other country in Latin america with regards to potential Revolutionary struggle. i am just putting it out there, that people in Bolivia ,Venezuela, Brazil and other Latin American countries are questioning Capitalism and are Today involved in a Class Struggle. Stating the bleeding obvious but Latin America is vast with many resources and great potential, the people are saying why should this only benefit a few ? do we know about this ? can we read about this in our media ?? gold fish bowl springs to mind !!
"why should it just be the bankers, politicians and the idle rich who get all the best things ? we demand a standard of living for our members that enables them to share in the fine wines and times that the likes of Cameron and his Eton buddies take for granted " - the late great Bob Crow RIP.
not sourced from the SWP just information out there on the internet.
Must be true then, it's on the Net. With words like "Neoliberalism" you can bet it's author was Left Wing though...
do we know about this ? can we read about this in our media ?? gold fish bowl springs to mind
Why would our media publish it? It's nothing new or even interesting.
Too many false dawns and false hopes in the Third World to worry about any more. I expect there'll be some media coverage when the news story is of the peasants over- throwing the "Left Wing dictatorship" due to thier embezzlement of £millions/crimes against humanity/lack of democracy/torturing the innocents/etc in a year or so.
Tman wrote:not sourced from the SWP just information out there on the internet.
Must be true then, it's on the Net. With words like "Neoliberalism" you can bet it's author was Left Wing though...
do we know about this ? can we read about this in our media ?? gold fish bowl springs to mind
Why would our media publish it? It's nothing new or even interesting.
Too many false dawns and false hopes in the Third World to worry about any more. I expect there'll be some media coverage when the news story is of the peasants over- throwing the "Left Wing dictatorship" due to thier embezzlement of £millions/crimes against humanity/lack of democracy/torturing the innocents/etc in a year or so.
Surely it's better to find out about what's happening there, so that we can try to convince our Government to do something about it (not that they're likley to bother, unless there's Oil there. ). That way, there is a chance (however small) of reducing the risks to the People who live there. Political pressure, can sometimes be useful, for things like this. It's not infallible, but can sometimes influence things over time. It's better than doing nothing, anyway.
Don't knock Insanity
it's just another outlook on Reality!
Tman wrote:not sourced from the SWP just information out there on the internet.
Must be true then, it's on the Net. With words like "Neoliberalism" you can bet it's author was Left Wing though...
do we know about this ? can we read about this in our media ?? gold fish bowl springs to mind
Why would our media publish it? It's nothing new or even interesting.
Too many false dawns and false hopes in the Third World to worry about any more. I expect there'll be some media coverage when the news story is of the peasants over- throwing the "Left Wing dictatorship" due to thier embezzlement of £millions/crimes against humanity/lack of democracy/torturing the innocents/etc in a year or so.
the peasants are supporting the left wing Government of Chavez which is in power now , its the right wing trying to overthrow them , there is plenty of oil in Venezuela , Chavez has nationalized the oil company which has not gone down too well with the Oligarchy.
"why should it just be the bankers, politicians and the idle rich who get all the best things ? we demand a standard of living for our members that enables them to share in the fine wines and times that the likes of Cameron and his Eton buddies take for granted " - the late great Bob Crow RIP.
Or you could mention Pinochet, or the influence of the US World Bank(dodgy name) or the ex puppet Noriega,or the loyal cocaine producers of Columbia(war on drugs ), Or the $11 million to fund Bolivian terrorists,or the illegal war against the democratically elected Sandinistas,or even going outside the Americas what about the US funding,training and arming of the Taliban and The US setting up those wicked Muslim extremist hotbeds of discontent ,the Madrasas
Tman wrote:
peasants over- throwing the "Left Wing dictatorship" due to thier embezzlement of £millions/crimes against humanity/lack of democracy/torturing the innocents/etc in a year or so.
Seen that somwhere before it could hail from royal fails top men 'although they are a tad to the right of centre' the peasants are 'our people'
the dictatorship is now in it's final months and no doubt we will get to here all sorts of storys from 'insiders' at old street
BELIAL wrote:Or you could mention Pinochet, or the influence of the US World Bank(dodgy name) or the ex puppet Noriega,or the loyal cocaine producers of Columbia(war on drugs ), Or the $11 million to fund Bolivian terrorists,or the illegal war against the democratically elected Sandinistas,or even going outside the Americas what about the US funding,training and arming of the Taliban and The US setting up those wicked Muslim extremist hotbeds of discontent ,the Madrasas
Yep, sure could. You could mention Ariel Sharon, BB King, Ben E King, Marlon King, Postman Pat, Thomas the Tank Engine, and Pink Floyd too, but why bother?
After all, there's only so much unrelated and pure nonsense this board will take...
At least his were connected by a politically held view. Yours have no connection and look like you were just dismissing someone's opinion rather than arguing against it. So because his were related and yours, imo, were not it kind of ruins the last point in your post.
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TrueBlueTerrier wrote:At least his were connected by a politically held view. Yours have no connection and look like you were just dismissing someone's opinion rather than arguing against it
.
Hmm, listing some unconnected political struggles in Latin America hardly continues the thread or debate, which was more about the claims of left Wing progress in that unhappy continent than a list of political conflicts.
So because his were related and yours, imo, were not it kind of ruins the last point in your post.
Depends how deep you wish to look into individual posts. Belli's list was hardly debate or informative, but at least my list was obviously nonsensical..
). That way, there is a chance (however small) of reducing the risks to the People who live there. Political pressure, can sometimes be useful, for things like this. It's not infallible, but can sometimes influence things over time. It's better than doing nothing, anyway.
