Injury on Delivery

[rockytony67]

Obviously people know that if you have an accident on delivery, then it should not be counted towards your sick record. But what about if you get an injury whilst doing your walk, that is not down to an accident but just your body giving out, someone asked me today but it seems to be a bit of a grey area, anyone got any views

[rockytony67]

ive an idea.yes it does count.its not at all a grey area.
i assume by gave way you meant by years of delivery .try proving that one.

What documentation or agreements do you base your views on? also in my view someone can pull a muscle or tear a ligament on there first day of delivery, or in there 15 year of delivery, in many ways people are more likely to have an injury in the early days when there body is not used to it. If it's not a grey area would you be kind enough to tell were I can get the info from Thanks

[rockytony67]

Unfortunately we seem to have got our wires crossed, if someone today went out on delivery and sustained an injury on there walk and then went sick, would it count against there sick record or not? you said it is not a grey area so can you point me in the direction of how you know that?

[faithlilly]

Unfortunately we seem to have got our wires crossed, if someone today went out on delivery and sustained an injury on there walk and then went sick, would it count against there sick record or not? you said it is not a grey area so can you point me in the direction of how you know that?

Tony if they can prove the postperson in someway caused the accident they can count it. Make sure when the accident is reported that you take a rep with you and at all other times when dealing with management. There also has to be an investigation with 48 hours of the accident and you must be warned at the time of reporting the accident that the abscence may be counted. If they don't do this then it can't be counted. Whatever you do keep all the paperwork relating to the accident in case you need it at a later date. Also register your accident with the DWP as an industrial injury.

[brothermagrew]

Unfortunately we seem to have got our wires crossed, if someone today went out on delivery and sustained an injury on there walk and then went sick, would it count against there sick record or not? you said it is not a grey area so can you point me in the direction of how you know that?

Blaming individuals is ultimately fruitless and sustains the myth that accidents and cases of ill health are unavoidable when the opposite is true. Well thought-out risk control measures, combined with adequate supervision, monitoring and effective management (i.e. risk management system) will ensure that your work activities are safe. Health and safety investigations are an important tool in developing and refining risk management system.

'Adverse event' - includes:

Accident: an event that results in injury or ill health;

Incident:
Near miss: an event that, while not causing harm, has the potential to cause injury or ill health;
Undesired circumstance: a set of conditions or circumstances that have the potential to cause injury or ill health, e.g. untrained nurses handling heavy patients.

Then you could go on with:

Risk: The level of risk is determined from a combination of the likelihood of a specific undesirable event occurring and the severity of the consequences (i.e. how often it is likely to happen, how many people could be affected and how bad would the likely injuries or ill health effects be?).

Risk control measures: are the workplace precautions put in place to reduce the risk to a tolerable level?

Root cause: an initiating event or failing from which all other causes or failings spring. Root causes are generally management, planning or organisational failings.

Underlying cause: the less obvious 'system' or 'orgaqnisational' reason for an adverse event happening, e.g. pre-start-up machinery checks are not carried out by supervisors; the hazard has not been adequately considered via a suitable and sufficient risk assessment; production pressures are too great etc.

Dangerous occurrence: one of a number of specific, reportable adverse events, as defined in the Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations 1995 (RIDDOR).

Hazard: the potential to cause harm, including ill health and injury; damage to property, plant, products or the environment, production losses or increased liabilities.

Immediate cause: the most obvious reason why an adverse event happens, e.g. the guard is missing; the employee slips etc. There may be several immediate causes in any one adverse event.

One of the best if not thee best publication is the following - Investigating accidents and incidents - A workbook for employers, unions, safety representatives and safety professionals ISBN 0 7176 2827 2.

So to answer your question as an accident is an event that results in injury or ill health then I would suggest that it should not count against your sick record. However, having said that we all know what Royal Mail are capable of they often put their own spin or interpretation on events. Fight your corner and take a CWU Rep in with you.

[rockytony67]

Thanks for the reply Brothermagrew, it's actually not me but someone who hasn't been in the job a long time, to cut a long story short the person was out on delivery, going up some stairs and felt something go in there leg, they completed there delivery and went back at the end of there walk to put it in the accident book.
The manager on questioning them said it was not an accident, and that they could not put it in the book, they accepted this and did not tell anyone else in the office what had happened. Over the coming weeks the person was seen to be limping about all the time, when questioned about the limp the person explained what had happened and that they could not afford to go sick as they would not get sick pay and that they were waiting for a hospital appointment.

After getting there appointment and having a scan they've been told they need an OP, and that they will be off for up too six weeks, this is the crux of the matter should it count against there sick record.

[brothermagrew]

Thanks for the reply Brothermagrew, it's actually not me but someone who hasn't been in the job a long time, to cut a long story short the person was out on delivery, going up some stairs and felt something go in there leg, they completed there delivery and went back at the end of there walk to put it in the accident book.
The manager on questioning them said it was not an accident, and that they could not put it in the book, they accepted this and did not tell anyone else in the office what had happened. Over the coming weeks the person was seen to be limping about all the time, when questioned about the limp the person explained what had happened and that they could not afford to go sick as they would not get sick pay and that they were waiting for a hospital appointment.

After getting there appointment and having a scan they've been told they need an OP, and that they will be off for up too six weeks, this is the crux of the matter should it count against there sick record.

rockytony67
IMHO the DOM was completely wrong for failing to report the accident and the employee concerned was wrong for accepting what the DOM had said. I as a CWU health and safety rep can only refer you and others to the following guideline for safety reps.

"Accident Investigation Guide for Safety Representatives"
Following the recently published HSE Research findings that accidents appropriate to be reported under the Under the Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations (RIDDOR) were being under-reported by as much as 70%, it was felt to be an appropriate time to issue guidance to Safety Representatives on this key issue.
In the light of the findings, which are no surprise to the Health, Safety & Environment Department that under-reporting is the norm, Safety Reps are advised to:
• Ensure that accidents are both properly reported and notified by members.
• Investigate workplace accidents.
• Receive and retain information relating to workplace accidents.
It is vital that all accidents, illnesses and near misses in the workplace are reported so that the cause of the accident and injuries can be identified and lessons can be learned so as to avoid re-occurrences.
Safety Reps need to make sure they are aware of what management have to do when accidents occur and make sure it is done. Ensure that members know that they need to report all accidents and check that details are communicated promptly to the Safety Rep so that firstly a check can be made on Management fulfilling the employers legal obligations and secondly that a prompt investigation is conducted, making sure that management are providing a safe place to work and safe system of work in a safe working environment by carrying out regular workplace inspections - which Safety Reps are legally entitled to do.

The Safety Representatives and Safety Committees Regulations 1977 set out the legal functions for safety representatives, which include the right to investigate:

• potential hazards
• dangerous occurrences
• causes of accidents and occupational ill-health
• complaints from their members

Safety reps can therefore, immediately, and without formal notice of an inspection, investigate imminent risks and accidents. The Regulations give reps the right to conduct an inspection after there's been a notifiable accident or dangerous occurrence or where a notifiable disease has been contracted.

The regulations state that Safety Reps can inspect where it is "reasonably practicable" for them to do so, provided it is safe to do so and in the interests of employees represented.
Following an incident, the only acceptable reason for anything to be moved is as a precaution against further hazards and for rescue purposes.
The Regulations support Safety Reps' rights to take witness statements after an accident has occurred.

By consulting members on a regular basis regarding workplace accidents Safety Reps can monitor how well the management are doing in recording workplace accidents and then implementing preventative measures.
Accident management should be a regular item at joint Health & Safety Committee meetings.

The HSE takes the view that: "Occupational accidents and ill health can be signals that risk control measures have failed. If they are properly investigated, this can reveal weaknesses in the control systems which need to be remedied. A joint investigation with the safety representative is more likely to give employees the confidence to co-operate fully in any investigation, because those involved may not wish to reveal any details in case they are blamed for the accident. Also, what someone says immediately after an accident may affect any subsequent civil compensation claim."

Following an accident or near-miss a Safety Rep should:
• gather the evidence including witness statements.
• put the evidence into chronological order. (It will help to determine what happened)
• use the decision making process to ensure that measures are taken to prevent re-
occurrence.
• report your findings to management, including your recommendations and any
possible breaches of legislation (in writing - retaining copies).

Inspections after an Accident
When using the right to inspect after an accident or dangerous occurrence, or development of an industrial disease, a safety rep should:
• notify the employer as soon as possible of your intention to inspect the scene of an
accident. If, initially, this has to be done verbally, confirm it in writing as soon as
possible
• do the inspection before the scene has been cleared up and important evidence
removed
• inspect the scene of the problem as soon as possible after the accident. If the
manager is not available, you have the right to inspect the scene on your own
• make notes of the essential facts of the accident. Record the time of the
investigation, who is present, who has been spoken to. Speak to the members
involved as soon as is practicable. Talk to anyone who may have seen the accident
• keep accident notes systematically filed for future reference. They may be needed in the event of a HSE or LA prosecution or indeed a civil litigation compensation claim
• it's far too easy to blame the victim when accidents occur. Safety reps should be
looking at what the employer has done to prevent accidents. What about training?
Was the right equipment available? Had safe working methods been defined? What
sort of supervision was there? Did the individual receive adequate Information,
Instruction, Training and Supervision, have management safety audits been
completed and acted upon ? was safe working checked and monitored ?

Your report should be proportionate to the events. It could be anything from a short basic note to a full-blown, multi-page report depending on the type of incident. Include all the facts as a readable narrative; do not expect management, the HSE, Lawyers or perhaps a High Court judge to rummage through a wad of confusing and un-collated information. Record what witnesses have said and in what way they disagree. Time and date all documents and get statements signed. Use a good quality Camera.

If the physical evidence conflicts with witness(es), point this out. In either case, keep your own views and comments until the end. Keep your account clear, accurate and concise. Remember that it could be used as evidence in a Court of Law where people may try to put an interpretation upon it that is very different from what you intended.

The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) publishes guidance on how to investigate accidents and incidents, including near misses. This is entitled "Investigating accidents and incidents - a workbook for employers, unions, safety representatives and safety professionals". This new style guidance was first published in 2004 was prepared in consultation with industry, unions and health and safety professional bodies and is intended as a first step in introducing organisations to the benefits of carrying out investigations and the methods by which accidents should be recorded, investigated and the findings acted upon.
No previous expertise is needed to use the HSE workbook and guidance notes that take the user step-by-step through the investigating process from start to finish and includes worked examples and blank template forms for accident analysis.
The four steps featured in the guidance are:
• the gathering of information;
• the analysing of information;
• identifying risk control measures;
• and the action plan and its implementation.
To have one accident is bad enough, but to have a further accident because lessons weren't learnt is inexcusable. When the new Workbook was launched the HSE stated that "HSE believes that the best people to make workplaces safer are the Safety Reps, staff and managers who work in them. By producing the new guidance the aim is to provide a tool for managers and safety reps to find out what went wrong, learn lessons and take action to reduce, or hopefully prevent, accidents in the future."
Copies of 'Investigating accidents and incidents - a workbook for employers, unions, safety representatives and safety professionals' (HSE Ref. HSG245) are available from HSE Books, PO Box 1999, Sudbury, Suffolk CO10 2WA (Tel: 01787-881165/Fax: 01787-313995). Priced at £9.50.
Yours sincerely
Dave Joyce
National Health, Safety & Environment Officer

[rockytony67]

Thanks for reply Brothermagrew, unfortunately it still does not answer the question as to whether the person in question should have the sick absence counted against there sick record or not? as you say your a health & safety rep and you can't give a definite answer, what chance do new recruits have in matters like this when they get told by mangers that they can't put it in the accident book, it's as I said earlier on in the posts a grey area, Thanks for your help will keep asking around

[brothermagrew]

Thanks for reply Brothermagrew, unfortunately it still does not answer the question as to whether the person in question should have the sick absence counted against there sick record or not? as you say your a health & safety rep and you can't give a definite answer, what chance do new recruits have in matters like this when they get told by mangers that they can't put it in the accident book, it's as I said earlier on in the posts a grey area, Thanks for your help will keep asking around

rockytony67
Why not refer the person in question to the HSE Infoline let him or her give them the details of what actually happened and let them clearly point out that their manager did not record an accident at work in the accident book and that the employee was of the opinion that all accidents at work were first to be reported and then duly recorded. Anyway as you should well know accidents at work in Royal Mail are now reported online via the ERICA system.

[rockytony67]

Thanks for that Brothermagrew, seems a good idea I'll see if I can get them to try that, as for the accident book you know what it's like, old habits die hard