Our Enemies

[BELIAL]

It was a general comment drawing a link between our particular circumstances and another instance (Nestles agressive marketing of dried infant formula using salesmen disguised as health workers to promote the uptake of their products to unsuspecting third world mothers,with frequently fatal consequences)Point being the"loop" is massive ,the loop is not restricted to RM ,the loop is more than a current blip. Exploitation ,like usury can be viewed as a moral crime.

[majeed]

It was a general comment drawing a link between our particular circumstances and another instance (Nestles agressive marketing of dried infant formula using salesmen disguised as health workers to promote the uptake of their products to unsuspecting third world mothers,with frequently fatal consequences)Point being the"loop" is massive ,the loop is not restricted to RM ,the loop is more than a current blip. Exploitation ,like usury can be viewed as a moral crime.

Oh! I see! Thanks for that. My comment was a take on the organisation as a huge group of people - individuals - who all have their interactions and each of whose lives come into contact with Royal Mail. To me - and in actual fact, in Law - Royal Mail as a body corporate: it is a person in it's own right. That is how I see it. It is independent of anyone and anything. A focus on people whose lives it touches removes any discussions except those pertaining to how they feel and get through life together and privately on a daily basis.

[BELIAL]

Curious argument? Interaction and connection are are undeniable ,all things are connected. Yet in the case of Royal mail the subject is isolated and should discussed as if existing in a vacuum. Laws ,being social constructs,vary geographically and with time,yet nothing in "law" is ever "independent of anyone or anything'.
As for getting through life privately on a daily basis ,I guess I'd choose not to use ,exploit,profit from, abuse,injure,upset or manipulate others: if only the same could be said of the body corporate eh

[majeed]

Curious argument? Interaction and connection are are undeniable ,all things are connected. Yet in the case of Royal mail the subject is isolated and should discussed as if existing in a vacuum. Laws ,being social constructs,vary geographically and with time,yet nothing in "law" is ever "independent of anyone or anything'.
As for getting through life privately on a daily basis ,I guess I'd choose not to use ,exploit,profit from, abuse,injure,upset or manipulate others: if only the same could be said of the body corporate eh

???

...okaaaayyyy... *steps away slowly*

have a nice evening.

[BELIAL]

Bon nuit

[andy2007]

It was a general comment drawing a link between our particular circumstances and another instance (Nestles agressive marketing of dried infant formula using salesmen disguised as health workers to promote the uptake of their products to unsuspecting third world mothers,with frequently fatal consequences)Point being the"loop" is massive ,the loop is not restricted to RM ,the loop is more than a current blip. Exploitation ,like usury can be viewed as a moral crime.

Oh! I see! Thanks for that. My comment was a take on the organisation as a huge group of people - individuals - who all have their interactions and each of whose lives come into contact with Royal Mail. To me - and in actual fact, in Law - Royal Mail as a body corporate: it is a person in it's own right. That is how I see it. It is independent of anyone and anything. A focus on people whose lives it touches removes any discussions except those pertaining to how they feel and get through life together and privately on a daily basis.

The problem, is that there is so much apathy among our Collegues. We recently had a very important union Meeting, and only had 30 people turn up (less than 10% of the Staff!). If that's the best that we can manage. We're not going to do very well! do you get better turnouts?

[majeed]

It was a general comment drawing a link between our particular circumstances and another instance (Nestles agressive marketing of dried infant formula using salesmen disguised as health workers to promote the uptake of their products to unsuspecting third world mothers,with frequently fatal consequences)Point being the"loop" is massive ,the loop is not restricted to RM ,the loop is more than a current blip. Exploitation ,like usury can be viewed as a moral crime.

Oh! I see! Thanks for that. My comment was a take on the organisation as a huge group of people - individuals - who all have their interactions and each of whose lives come into contact with Royal Mail. To me - and in actual fact, in Law - Royal Mail as a body corporate: it is a person in it's own right. That is how I see it. It is independent of anyone and anything. A focus on people whose lives it touches removes any discussions except those pertaining to how they feel and get through life together and privately on a daily basis.

The problem, is that there is so much apathy among our Colleagues. We recently had a very important union Meeting, and only had 30 people turn up (less than 10% of the Staff!). If that's the best that we can manage. We're not going to do very well! do you get better turnouts?

Having been with company for nine months, I have not witnessed a Union meeting taking place, but I would attend, as a Union member, of course. I have also asked to have my name put down to "put something back into the Union". When they sent the sheets through the post to vote recently, I didn't complete the form, as I have no idea what makes one person a better candidate than the other: I was advised to join the Union before I joined the company, and I have always had a Union rep to turn to, whenever I needed one. That's all I know, really. The Union is there if I hit a problem regarding treatment or working conditions generally.

[andy2007]

If only everyone took such a responsible attitude to voting.

When it comes to voting for Naional Candidates. Many people, just blindly follow the reccomendatin of their Branch, and pick the rest at random. What we need, are for people like yourself, to take the responsible attitude, and try to get aas many facts as possible. Before Voting.

[andy2007]

Just because there is rot at the top, doesn't mean that we should abandon the whole Union. If we got people to stop being so apathetic, and actually put the effort in. We could DO something about them.

I think I speak for the majority (at least on here), when I say that it is morally wrong to cross ANY Picket Line, anywhere! But that's no reason to abandon the entire Union. Change can only (realistically) be acieved from within. Not by "throwing our toys out of the pram", because we were badly let down, by those who crossed the lines.

Unfortunately. When we only get less than 10% of the Members, turning up for important Meetings. It doesn't look like we have much of a chance, of changing anything. We need to get the "armchair Militants" off their backsides, and into the meetings.

Sadly, I was once one of them. But I eventually realised, that if I wanted anything to change. I had to put the effort in. We just need the other 90% of Members to do the same.

[majeed]

Just because there is rot at the top, doesn't mean that we should abandon the whole Union. If we got people to stop being so apathetic, and actually put the effort in. We could DO something about them.

I think I speak for the majority (at least on here), when I say that it is morally wrong to cross ANY Picket Line, anywhere! But that's no reason to abandon the entire Union. Change can only (realistically) be acieved from within. Not by "throwing our toys out of the pram", because we were badly let down, by those who crossed the lines.

Unfortunately. When we only get less than 10% of the Members, turning up for important Meetings. It doesn't look like we have much of a chance, of changing anything. We need to get the "armchair Militants" off their backsides, and into the meetings.

Sadly, I was once one of them. But I eventually realised, that if I wanted anything to change. I had to put the effort in. We just need the other 90% of Members to do the same.

I don't mean to be rude, but you can't cut off your nose at the same time as throwing toys, because you're hands are full in the first instance. Just a point.

Are we really so apathetic and if so, why?

[majeed]

I'm currently subscribed to this and another thread, among others, and I'm absolutely amazed at the disparity between them. This is the other thread, which is quite amusing, in places:

http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk/communit ... &sk=t&sd=a

[BELIAL]

but back to the thread.these people are slagging off most probably anyone and everyone union or not who worked instead of striked.yet they dont even follow their own self imposed moral stance.it wasnt just the guys at the top crossing the picket line but thousands of union reps of all levels. the preachers are the real scum of life

Got a checkable source for these figures or is it just drivel? sounds a bit sermon- like

[andy2007]

Just because there is rot at the top, doesn't mean that we should abandon the whole Union. If we got people to stop being so apathetic, and actually put the effort in. We could DO something about them.

I think I speak for the majority (at least on here), when I say that it is morally wrong to cross ANY Picket Line, anywhere! But that's no reason to abandon the entire Union. Change can only (realistically) be acieved from within. Not by "throwing our toys out of the pram", because we were badly let down, by those who crossed the lines.

Unfortunately. When we only get less than 10% of the Members, turning up for important Meetings. It doesn't look like we have much of a chance, of changing anything. We need to get the "armchair Militants" off their backsides, and into the meetings.

Sadly, I was once one of them. But I eventually realised, that if I wanted anything to change. I had to put the effort in. We just need the other 90% of Members to do the same.

well being a union and majority rule rules ,if 90percent couldnt give a toss.your supposed to accept it not try your hardest to convert them all to your own thoughts.basic union princples

Oh, it isn't that they don't give a toss. Quite the contrary. They just don't want to put the effort in.

If a decision is made at one of these meetings, and the "armchair Militants" disagree. They will kick up a considerable fuss. They just can't be bothered to turn up at the meetings, to get the facts. They just rely on soundbites, and second hand information.

When I ask them about it. I'm invariably told "What's the point, we can't change anything". I just wish I could get them to understand, that if they actually tried. They COULD change things.

However: You are spot on, about majority rule. The problem is, that they want their opinions to be taken into account (and rightly so). But don't want to bother turning up to voice them. No wonder, they think that they can't change things. But what's the solution?
There must be one, I just wish I knew what it was!

[TrueBlueTerrier]

but back to the thread.these people are slagging off most probably anyone and everyone union or not who worked instead of striked.yet they dont even follow their own self imposed moral stance.it wasnt just the guys at the top crossing the picket line but thousands of union reps of all levels. the preachers are the real scum of life

Got a checkable source for these figures or is it just drivel? sounds a bit sermon- like

Also as the debate before we went off-line shows there is still confusion as to whether or not the NI Lads had a properly constituted or legal picket line or if it was a protest. I still would not have crossed it but those who did have to answer to their own conscience as to what they believed the NI branch had formed, and whether to stand in solidarity or cross and get on with the business of the day which ultimately would affect more members than those in the NI branch. IMHO a difficult decision whichever way you choose to go.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

well being a union and majority rule rules ,if 90percent couldnt give a toss.your supposed to accept it not try your hardest to convert them all to your own thoughts.basic union princples

I have to disagree with that if 90% can't give a toss or have formed no opinion then it is your democratic right to attempt to change or help them form an opinion. The one thing you cannot do IMO is once their is a Democratic decision to accept or reject an a proposal is to actively go against that proposal, for example striking against part of the current national agreement. However, there is nothing wrong in people who supported the defeated side of the argument, attempting to change peoples minds and positions. If it was wrong, why do people discuss brining back Capital punishment, that law has been repealed and in your argument people cannot or should not be discussing it.