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The importance of the first step

Postal workers discussion forum. Discuss the day to day life in a Blue Shirt.
A2B
Posts: 1796
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 19:34
Gender: Male

Re: The importance of the first step

Post by A2B »

Jonathan Alsatian wrote:
Today, 03:30
If the ballet result is a NO then RM will walk away from the table and equalisation will never happen. It really is that simple. Its a crap deal but at least there is a commitment to a further step and timetable in January.
You have faith in the timetable for further talks? we've been here many times before and it gets lost in the ether

I personally feel there will never be equalisation in the way that you hope, the new and old terms will get closer because the old terms will be negotiated away.

The CWU know their core members are dwindling and the only way to survive is to try and recruit new members and are going all out to do that while losing focus on the workers who have funded the union for years.
Sean06
Posts: 2209
Joined: 20 Nov 2023, 16:50
Gender: Male

Re: The importance of the first step

Post by Sean06 »

A2B wrote:
Today, 00:45
Sean06 wrote:
Yesterday, 17:44
A2B wrote:
Yesterday, 11:36
Sean06 wrote:
Yesterday, 11:09
raXor wrote:
Yesterday, 09:57
The below are the only steps you need to follow if you're on a new contract and in the union:

1. Vote 'NO'
2. Cancel union membership.
Should have added (are you prepared to go on strike).
Why? There's no vote for strike action

This is a vote on a proposed change in working methods that's it
So what happens if new starters vote NO im just asking will they be prepared to go on strike hoping for a better deal.
Are you suggesting the CWU are prepared to ballot for strike action when it's a no vote?

The CWU have said it's the best deal they can get so will they go back to RM when it comes back as a vote not to accept RM's proposal?

All CWU members are being given an opportunity to vote, but from what the CWU are saying there is no solution when the vote comes to reject the proposal
I am talking about new starters.
Sean06
Posts: 2209
Joined: 20 Nov 2023, 16:50
Gender: Male

Re: The importance of the first step

Post by Sean06 »

Saturn1 wrote:
Yesterday, 20:28
Sean06 wrote:
Yesterday, 17:46
Saturn1 wrote:
Yesterday, 17:07
Seems laughable that 6 months ago the talk was about improving overtime rates, now people are expected to vote for a deal that sacrifices their overtime rate in favour of a paltry rise to basic pay.

Where is the consistency and joined up thinking, no wonder RM act with a level of impunity now.
Pay an ot rates have nothing to do with what we are voting on.pay is separate.
For somebody who defends the union at every step you'd think you'd know that new entrants are voting on the 1.75% pay increase and removal of the 1.25x OT uplift.
Yes new entrants are legacy staff are not.
pm55
Posts: 19
Joined: 11 Apr 2024, 15:27
Gender: Male

Re: The importance of the first step

Post by pm55 »

Martin Walsh wrote:
Yesterday, 08:11

The additional 1.75% for new entrants with the 3% will mean they are 7.1% away from parity of pay with old contracts on the national basic and 13.2% away from parity with the supplement.
7.1% lower flat hourly, 13.2% lower when you include delivery supplement. That doesn't sound too bad, but what about paid meal relief? This isn't mentioned much in talks about equalisation.

Remember that when you compare a 37 hour week from contract to contract, the old contract works 34 hours of 37 as 3 hours are paid breaks. The new contract works 37 of 37 hours, takes 3 hours of unpaid breaks. This is a 3 hour difference in time spent at work and a 3 hour difference in amount of actual work done.

That's a difference of just under 9% in pay per hour worked. Add that to your 13.2% and the real difference if both contracts do 34 hours of actual paid work per week, spending 37 hours at work taking 3 hours of breaks is 22%.

Not only that, but national minimum wage has increased by 11% in two years. In 2024 it was £11.44/h. Two years later it's £12.71. If it increases at this rate over the next two years NMW will be ~£14.10/h and the new hourly of £13.68 for new contracts is only 7.6% above the current NWM.

Doesn't this mean as minimum wage catches up, the 1.75% increase to base will eventually get eaten up as RM will have to increase their rates anyway to comply with NMW laws? This 1.75% is only temporary wheras the 1.25x rate over 40 hours worked was a permenant benefit of the contract, even if not everyone benefitted from it. No matter what NMW increases to, that 1.25x would always be a plus.
Martin Walsh wrote:
Yesterday, 08:11
If you include Christmas then out of 28575 new entrants only 998 new entrants per week ever worked above 40 hours. If you removed the 4 weeks of Christmas this reduced to 566 new entrants working above 40 hours.
What are these numbers based on? Who gave them and what data did they use to back it up? I find this absolutely baffling as I'd estimate at least 80% of new entrants in my office have done at least one week over 43 hours, even if they average around 31 throughout the year.
Remember, 28575 new entrants, but only 14,000 or so have been in the business more than a year. I started on a 25h contract and it took almost a year to get consistent overtime above 40 hours per week.

The real number I'd like to see is out of every single person who has been employed on the new contract, how many of them ever did more than 43 hours in a week? How likely is it that a lot of those 40+ hour workers have just left to work elsewhere and 14,000 people with under a year in the business are still learning?

As one of the "3.5%" doing 43+ hours a week on the new contracts what reason do I have to vote yes to this change? If there were clear incremental steps then sure, but all we've been given is undefined promises that we'll get more later. But we've already been told... first step in September, full path in December and that was almost a year ago. I simply don't believe a word the CWU says about equalisation anymore because I don't believe they have any leverage at all and I can't see a single reason why RM would increase their wage bill unless they had absolutely atrocious retention rates.

Daniel Kretinsky himself said at the B&T committee RM doesn't have a retention crisis, they get 15 applicants for every position! It's only a matter of time before new contracts out number old contracts. If we reach that point without any real progress on equalisation then it won't be us new entrants getting better terms, it'll be the old contracts getting ours. :neutral:
billycat
Posts: 126
Joined: 24 Jul 2012, 20:40
Gender: Male

Re: The importance of the first step

Post by billycat »

Martin I would appreciate an answer to my question please.
tramssirhc
Posts: 1530
Joined: 04 Sep 2012, 20:19
Gender: Male

Re: The importance of the first step

Post by tramssirhc »

Martin Walsh wrote:
Yesterday, 08:11
Hundreds of companies in the UK operate a two tier workforce, virtually none ever commit to equalisation and many are in a much more profitable place than Royal Mail. Royal Mail imposed new entrants during the 2022 dispute.

This was done for a number of reasons the first is when the union rejected making Sunday working for old contracts mandatory and secondly to compete with the self bogus employment model which exists within practically every other parcel player in the UK which are undercutting Royal Mail in the parcels market.

The 9 month delay in introducing USO reform resulted in EP stating they could no longer afford Equalisation.

The CWU would not agree to USO without a first step and recommitment to full equalisation including a timespan for the next step and full plan.

We would have wanted more but the delay in USO and the fact that Royal Mail will at best break even for the last year and has meant this is all we can achieve in a negotiated settlement.

We have now made a full time job at 37 hours harmonised for old and new contracts. We protected the 3000 new entrants which have contracts above the 37 hours and they recieve the full pay rise and their pension is protected and we will bring them down to 37 hours without loss of pay.

The additional 1.75% for new entrants with the 3% will mean they are 7.1% away from parity of pay with old contracts on the national basic and 13.2% away from parity with the supplement.

We have bought their overtime down to 1.0 , old contracts are 0.98 for the first 10 hours. The rationale for this is new entrants do not get paid overtime until they work over 40 hours and very few work above 40 hours.

If you include Christmas then out of 28575 new entrants only 998 new entrants per week ever worked above 40 hours. If you removed the 4 weeks of Christmas this reduced to 566 new entrants working above 40 hours.

We have used this to fund some the improved pay rise for all new entrants so they have it all year.

We have also agreed to increase the average contracted hours of a new entrant from 31 hours to 35 hours.

This means that a current new entrant on 31 hours gets the 4.75% pay rise and then gets an additional 4 hours on their contract will receive their pay increase by £73 per week £3844 per year.

We will also change their gig economy contract and will try and secure them being allowed to work scheduled attendance overtime and TPM.

Then we have agreed the review terms which will agree the next step snd full plan on equalisation by no later than January 2027.

Look at BT ,BA and hundreds of other companies they have never achieved a first step or a commitment to equalisation.

Rejection of this won’t mean EP will put more money on the table it is more likely they walk away from equalisation all together.

Our membership levels for new entrants is at 54% whereas our membership records for old contracts are nearer 90%.

We believe that the first step and commitment to equalisation is crucial to it happening at all.
We'd have some sympathy for your position if you hadn't thrown the post-22 contracts under the bus by isolating their vote. What sort of trade unionism is it where you split a group of workers who want the same thing - equalisation. When that ballot result comes in and the membership density becomes public you're finished. It's the longest suicide note in history. And a tale about the post-22 workers not being the same as pre-22 workers so it would be illegal wont change how we feel.
"The leadership will sabotage the fight and only make the slightest move under fear of powerful working class action" - Des Warren
Saturn1
Posts: 47
Joined: 24 Sep 2025, 16:44
Gender: Male

Re: The importance of the first step

Post by Saturn1 »

tramssirhc wrote:
Today, 17:12

We'd have some sympathy for your position if you hadn't thrown the post-22 contracts under the bus by isolating their vote. What sort of trade unionism is it where you split a group of workers who want the same thing - equalisation. When that ballot result comes in and the membership density becomes public you're finished. It's the longest suicide note in history. And a tale about the post-22 workers not being the same as pre-22 workers so it would be illegal wont change how we feel.
No disrespect to Martin, but look at the stark difference in this post of his from April '22, opposing two tier working, and rallying the workforce to "unite and fight". What happened? That was the union spirit of old, now it's a take it or leave it attitude.

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=104819&p=975975#p975975
Playmail
Posts: 205
Joined: 24 Oct 2023, 13:21
Gender: Male

Re: The importance of the first step

Post by Playmail »

Bt won't get equalisation too as its represented by cwu