Royal Mail Group Negotiations – Update for CWU Members

[Jefferson Starfish]

Still waiting for you to prove me wrong.

I'm still waiting for someone from the PWRFC to tell me what they're actually doing to improve the lives of postal workers, because mouthing off on here is having no impact whatsoever!

I'm still waiting for someone from the CWU to tell me what they're actually doing to improve the lives of postal workers, because mouthing off on here is having no impact whatsoever!

Which is totally irrelevant to my comment.

[buchanpeter]

I dip in and out of this thread so I’m not really upto date on events but is something supposed to be happening tomorrow regarding the pay rise and putting the proposal before the new board?

12% over 3 years.
35 hour working week.
Reinstatement of sick pay back to pre strike level.
VR at 12 months pay.
New entrants levelled up to "legacy" contract standards.
Delivery supplement gone.
Goal to move everyone to even later start and finish.
Introduction of morning and evening shift patterns.

15% minimum
Goal to starting and finishing earlier
It's already so bad in Scotland that we are only able to choose from 3 of the shift patterns.
With 4:30pm looking like the finishing time for rurals.

[SpacePhoenix]

Goal to starting and finishing earlier

Not sure that will be viable. If RM are installing extra CSS machines into MCs, it does suggest that they're going to change something about how we run the mail through the CSS machines.

[Ozzvaldo]

It's already so bad in Scotland that we are only able to choose from 3 of the shift patterns.
With 4:30pm looking like the finishing time for rurals.

Goodness knows what we're going to be offered at my office in England. HCTs, shared vans and rurals are already finishing at 4.30pm here.

[scotchy1962]

I don’t want to work Sundays and my pre-2010 contract doenst have it in there either.

I'm happy to work Sundays as long as we get something for it, like an extra day off and Sunday rate. That's not what the CWU are currently agreeing. They are watching workers doing 6 over 7 and have nothing to say about it. Compulsory overtime is a reality. Dont just sit back and let the CWU get away with it.
[/quote]

Just read this and have to say is it any wonder nobody supports you, nobody can make you work more than your contracted hours without you agreeing, they actually have laws in place for your protection and leave the company open to litigation and fines.
The fact that you would be prepared to sell out Sunday working in return for something else, makes you as bad if not worse than the union, self seving and uneducated are a recipe for disaster.

[tramssirhc]

Absolute nonsense. My position is that we should get something for Sunday working. At the moment workers are having to do 6 over 7. You're completely wrong about overtime and employers can enforce it. The needs of the business take priority over workers lives. That's been tested numerous times in law and employers have won time and time again.

Industries such as the postal industry issue contracts that explicitly state that overtime is necessary because of the nature of the work. They will say that the arrangements will be organised and notified in a timely manner. The CWU agreed to short notice overtime when it signed up to the flexibility agreement. Currently workers can be told to work an extra 30 minutes a day with no notice at all.

Just because you were able to say no and you got your own way doesn't mean the law was in your favour. And that's the point here. You're ability to do what you want was at someone else's expense. Your rep could have agreed overtime working at a resource meeting and you would have been contractually obliged to do it. Not doing it would have been a disciplinary matter.

The ability for one worker to do whatever they want is always at the expense of another worker who cant. This is one of the major problems with the CWU - selfishness.

Dont ever lecture me about trade unionism, the law or what's right or wrong. There's a big difference between me and you and the CWU loyalist in this forum - i have lived and breathed it all my life, I have held position you never had or will. Dont lecture me again.

[postslippete]

The flip side of that being why has an international businessman just paid £3.5B for a company that we’ve been told over the last X years is on its knees. He hasn’t walked in an paid the obligatory £1 to take on a dying company and all its problems. £3.5B - just think about that amount, even the Sphincter himself says he likes buying businesses that say they are struggling as the picture is never as bleak as it’s painted.

RM started this “no money” nonsense and have since brainwashed the CWU who just trot it out parrot fashion in every statement they put. Unfortunately it’s now the common narrative! This is a multi billion pound business and the only reason it doesn’t show the profits it should is because of the large wages, bonuses & gratuities paid out to people at the top. That in itself shows how successful financially the business itself is, however at the top end it’s run one way and at the bottom end it’s run the complete opposite where you would think we are some old corner shop business trying to survive amongst the conglomerates on the High Street.
The CWU should be attacking this not peddling the RM narrative to its members.

You've just pointed out the glaring contradiction a lot of us have been thinking - if RM is supposedly “dying” why has Kretínsky just paid billions for a full acquisition? Investors like him don’t throw money at hopeless causes. They buy undervalued assets where they believe they can strip costs or squeeze more profit from what’s already there and that should tell anyone that the situation isn’t as bleak as it’s been painted.

The business model isn't broken and RM has had rough years but most of that damage has been self-inflicted with costly executive decisions, dividends that were paid even during operating losses, a toxic management culture and prioritising parcels over service standards. All while using a manufactured “crisis” narrative to justify cuts, bullying, and restructuring.

The CWU seems to have internalised too much of that doom-talk and MW did it in the last deal when he talked about RM going into administration. But instead of repeating management’s line about “financial reality” they should be demanding to see all the books including cross-subsidies and executive pay. Why did the market just value the business at £3.5 billion? Why is there always money for executive bonuses? Rather than being grateful to be at the table, the CWU should be reminding EP Group and RM management who actually runs this business every day — the postal workers.

Profit is being generated, it’s just not being shared fairly. There’s always money for the top, while “cost savings” are just code for job cuts, workload hikes, and demoralisation on the shop floor. Royal Mail isn’t dying, it’s being drained to reward the few at the expense of the many.

[tramssirhc]

The flip side of that being why has an international businessman just paid £3.5B for a company that we’ve been told over the last X years is on its knees. He hasn’t walked in an paid the obligatory £1 to take on a dying company and all its problems. £3.5B - just think about that amount, even the Sphincter himself says he likes buying businesses that say they are struggling as the picture is never as bleak as it’s painted.

RM started this “no money” nonsense and have since brainwashed the CWU who just trot it out parrot fashion in every statement they put. Unfortunately it’s now the common narrative! This is a multi billion pound business and the only reason it doesn’t show the profits it should is because of the large wages, bonuses & gratuities paid out to people at the top. That in itself shows how successful financially the business itself is, however at the top end it’s run one way and at the bottom end it’s run the complete opposite where you would think we are some old corner shop business trying to survive amongst the conglomerates on the High Street.
The CWU should be attacking this not peddling the RM narrative to its members.

You've just pointed out the glaring contradiction a lot of us have been thinking - if RM is supposedly “dying” why has Kretínsky just paid billions for a full acquisition? Investors like him don’t throw money at hopeless causes. They buy undervalued assets where they believe they can strip costs or squeeze more profit from what’s already there and that should tell anyone that the situation isn’t as bleak as it’s been painted.

The business model isn't broken and RM has had rough years but most of that damage has been self-inflicted with costly executive decisions, dividends that were paid even during operating losses, a toxic management culture and prioritising parcels over service standards. All while using a manufactured “crisis” narrative to justify cuts, bullying, and restructuring.

The CWU seems to have internalised too much of that doom-talk and MW did it in the last deal when he talked about RM going into administration. But instead of repeating management’s line about “financial reality” they should be demanding to see all the books including cross-subsidies and executive pay. Why did the market just value the business at £3.5 billion? Why is there always money for executive bonuses? Rather than being grateful to be at the table, the CWU should be reminding EP Group and RM management who actually runs this business every day — the postal workers.

Profit is being generated, it’s just not being shared fairly. There’s always money for the top, while “cost savings” are just code for job cuts, workload hikes, and demoralisation on the shop floor. Royal Mail isn’t dying, it’s being drained to reward the few at the expense of the many.

The CWU claimed to have seen the books, and then told us it was broke. Other privatised companies give a warning - debt converted to dividend. Look at Thames Water.

[scotchy1962]

Absolute nonsense. My position is that we should get something for Sunday working. At the moment workers are having to do 6 over 7. You're completely wrong about overtime and employers can enforce it. The needs of the business take priority over workers lives. That's been tested numerous times in law and employers have won time and time again.

Industries such as the postal industry issue contracts that explicitly state that overtime is necessary because of the nature of the work. They will say that the arrangements will be organised and notified in a timely manner. The CWU agreed to short notice overtime when it signed up to the flexibility agreement. Currently workers can be told to work an extra 30 minutes a day with no notice at all.

Just because you were able to say no and you got your own way doesn't mean the law was in your favour. And that's the point here. You're ability to do what you want was at someone else's expense. Your rep could have agreed overtime working at a resource meeting and you would have been contractually obliged to do it. Not doing it would have been a disciplinary matter.

The ability for one worker to do whatever they want is always at the expense of another worker who cant. This is one of the major problems with the CWU - selfishness.

Dont ever lecture me about trade unionism, the law or what's right or wrong. There's a big difference between me and you and the CWU loyalist in this forum - i have lived and breathed it all my life, I have held position you never had or will. Dont lecture me again.

You said people are being forced to work extra days, that is illegal, being requested to do 30 mins extra as a business need (with the employee getting the time back) is a completely different thing you empty headed fool, i don't need to lecture you...... i merely point out the facts and you dig the hole and it's getting mighty large.

[scotchy1962]

Come to realise that Trams really doesn't seem to know anything apart from whatever he can find on google, where exactly do you work, do you actually earn a wage in RM and do you walk into walls?
There's a reason why we all have contracts, wherever we work, i have one in my new job and no union, so we all know where we stand, and yes i have already informed them i don't want, need or am not prepared to do overtime.
No complaints so far.
A Rep can't suddenly decide unilaterally that the whole office is doing o/t, i mean where on earth do you get this from.
Please try to get a few facts on your side before writing your continuous drivel.

[postslippete]

The CWU claimed to have seen the books, and then told us it was broke. Other privatised companies give a warning - debt converted to dividend. Look at Thames Water.

But what did they actually see? Or what was it that they were shown? There's a colossal difference between a corporate presentation and getting full access to the raw numbers that include internal transfers, executive bonuses, cross-subsidies and long term cost cutting strategies etc etc We both know RM has a long history of saying its broke while staying paying out to the top. No surprise that DK saw value as he is betting that he can make money because the workforce has already been squeezed and the business is undervalued.

Thames Water is a perfect comparison of a private company loaded up with debt not because it had to be but so investors could extract dividends and then claim they can't afford investment. So if RM is the next Thames Water, even more reason that CWU should be sounding the alarm rather than echoing the boardroom.

[yellowbelly]

Absolute nonsense. My position is that we should get something for Sunday working. At the moment workers are having to do 6 over 7. You're completely wrong about overtime and employers can enforce it. The needs of the business take priority over workers lives. That's been tested numerous times in law and employers have won time and time again.

Industries such as the postal industry issue contracts that explicitly state that overtime is necessary because of the nature of the work. They will say that the arrangements will be organised and notified in a timely manner. The CWU agreed to short notice overtime when it signed up to the flexibility agreement. Currently workers can be told to work an extra 30 minutes a day with no notice at all.

Just because you were able to say no and you got your own way doesn't mean the law was in your favour. And that's the point here. You're ability to do what you want was at someone else's expense. Your rep could have agreed overtime working at a resource meeting and you would have been contractually obliged to do it. Not doing it would have been a disciplinary matter.

The ability for one worker to do whatever they want is always at the expense of another worker who cant. This is one of the major problems with the CWU - selfishness.

Dont ever lecture me about trade unionism, the law or what's right or wrong. There's a big difference between me and you and the CWU loyalist in this forum - i have lived and breathed it all my life, I have held position you never had or will. Dont lecture me again.

Flexibility agreement has still not changed, this is from the beginning of the year and is a joint statement. So if the incoming lorry gets stuck in traffic and is delayed 30 min then the manager can ask to 30 min flex and give it back that week.

If you're talking about directing people to work 30 mins OT on the day because they didn't forecast and resource for the National Trust brochures
coming out today - ha, ha, ha.

Proposed Adaptation to the Existing Agreement

Despite the limitations of the existing scheme, it is acknowledged that the current operational setting does not provide the optimum platform from which to adapt the scheme. There are several key initiatives which have recently landed, or are in train, which Royal Mail Operations wish to bed in further before adaptations to the existing 30-Minutes Flex scheme are considered:

Seasonal Variation remains in its infancy, nine months after first deploying;

Network Window has just enacted a huge change to delivery start and finish times;

The business is developing capabilities to link SISO OT data to PSP payroll;

Wider USO reform and any future changes to the operational design.

This Joint Report therefore proposes that the business bed in the above changes before considering potential amendments to the existing agreement. The business and CWU will continue to consider the value of refining the existing scheme.

[tramssirhc]

The CWU claimed to have seen the books, and then told us it was broke. Other privatised companies give a warning - debt converted to dividend. Look at Thames Water.

But what did they actually see? Or what was it that they were shown? There's a colossal difference between a corporate presentation and getting full access to the raw numbers that include internal transfers, executive bonuses, cross-subsidies and long term cost cutting strategies etc etc We both know RM has a long history of saying its broke while staying paying out to the top. No surprise that DK saw value as he is betting that he can make money because the workforce has already been squeezed and the business is undervalued.

Thames Water is a perfect comparison of a private company loaded up with debt not because it had to be but so investors could extract dividends and then claim they can't afford investment. So if RM is the next Thames Water, even more reason that CWU should be sounding the alarm rather than echoing the boardroom.

The starting point is 5 billion.

[GRS]

The flip side of that being why has an international businessman just paid £3.5B for a company that we’ve been told over the last X years is on its knees. He hasn’t walked in an paid the obligatory £1 to take on a dying company and all its problems. £3.5B - just think about that amount, even the Sphincter himself says he likes buying businesses that say they are struggling as the picture is never as bleak as it’s painted.

RM started this “no money” nonsense and have since brainwashed the CWU who just trot it out parrot fashion in every statement they put. Unfortunately it’s now the common narrative! This is a multi billion pound business and the only reason it doesn’t show the profits it should is because of the large wages, bonuses & gratuities paid out to people at the top. That in itself shows how successful financially the business itself is, however at the top end it’s run one way and at the bottom end it’s run the complete opposite where you would think we are some old corner shop business trying to survive amongst the conglomerates on the High Street.
The CWU should be attacking this not peddling the RM narrative to its members.

You've just pointed out the glaring contradiction a lot of us have been thinking - if RM is supposedly “dying” why has Kretínsky just paid billions for a full acquisition? Investors like him don’t throw money at hopeless causes. They buy undervalued assets where they believe they can strip costs or squeeze more profit from what’s already there and that should tell anyone that the situation isn’t as bleak as it’s been painted.

The business model isn't broken and RM has had rough years but most of that damage has been self-inflicted with costly executive decisions, dividends that were paid even during operating losses, a toxic management culture and prioritising parcels over service standards. All while using a manufactured “crisis” narrative to justify cuts, bullying, and restructuring.

The CWU seems to have internalised too much of that doom-talk and MW did it in the last deal when he talked about RM going into administration. But instead of repeating management’s line about “financial reality” they should be demanding to see all the books including cross-subsidies and executive pay. Why did the market just value the business at £3.5 billion? Why is there always money for executive bonuses? Rather than being grateful to be at the table, the CWU should be reminding EP Group and RM management who actually runs this business every day — the postal workers.

Profit is being generated, it’s just not being shared fairly. There’s always money for the top, while “cost savings” are just code for job cuts, workload hikes, and demoralisation on the shop floor. Royal Mail isn’t dying, it’s being drained to reward the few at the expense of the many.

So the question that needs to be asked is why are the CWU parroting RM?

Either

A) They are incompetent
B) They are corrupt

No doubt in time it will come out which one they are, unfortunately it will be too late for many of us.

[clashcityrocker]

- if RM is supposedly “dying” why has Kretínsky just paid billions for a full acquisition?

Nobody said RM is dying - just the letters side of it.
He bought a parcel business with a successful GLS.

If you haven't understood that then the rest of your post is gibberish.