Union Using Door to Door Supplement as Bargaining Tool

[SMS1969]

So much scaremongering on here with no evidence whatsoever, thanks for coming on Martin

“No evidence whatsoever” eh?

It was well documented earlier this year that the CWU are negotiating on the paid meal relief, which (i quote) they claimed is “Outdated”

They will trade this away to get pay parity for new start contracts.

Well documented where, exactly?

[clashcityrocker]

Empty words you say, daft ideas is what i say.

The question you fail to answer is how do you protect your members' interests in a dying industry?
Whatever you think the role of a union should be doesn't really amount to much in the face of modern problems.

[Barnacle]

Why is the union's priority about the new starters, when it's the old workforce who have paid CWU subs for years!!

It might sound harsh but new starters know what they are in for when they sign up for Royal Mail, It's there in black and white. Whereas we older workers have had the rug pulled from under us, year after year of effective pay cuts (with inflation) and so many failed promises.

New starters are a priority — a burning priority — because the CWU’s mandate and power to act for the staff side demands that at least 50% of employees are members. With 20% of the workforce now being those of us on new contracts, growing week on week, and with very few of us new starters wanting to join the CWU as things stand, it will only be a few years before CWU faces an existential and possibly terminal crisis. As such, the CWU is now trying to show it can represent new starters, old guard, and be all things to all people. Who knows, maybe it can be. Alternatively, as you rightly allude to, there may be a bit of an irreconcilable conflict of interest here for the cwu…?

Membership is always a priority for any union.

You’re a union breaker who is actively seeking to undermine and dissuade anyone from joining. You despise the union.

You’ll need it one day.

[Mr Rush]

Finally does anyone really believe a different union would be able to get all the agreements the CWU have over 40 years everything from seniority , MTSF , Shift pay , functional pay , paid meal reliefs up to 6 weeks leave , Christmas bonus ,SA , election payments to name a few.

I have to nitpick: 1995 was not 40 years ago. Give us something special for the CWU's 30th birthday next year!

The invention of the internet and the growth of email has devastated what was our business. (delivery of letters)

Debateable. E-mail was in common business use long before mail volumes crested in 2005. However many text messages are being sent now, no-one was putting that stuff to paper 20 odd years ago. Online billing is far more recent and much more impactful.

The Hooper Report noted the old link between economic prosperity and mail volumes broke during the early part of this century. As this was post-2008, I'd venture that declining mail volumes might have been a better metric of economic wellbeing than the FTSE 100.

[Mickeybrowneyes]

Looking after us the membership should be the only priority of the union, nothing else.

How exactly do you look after the membership without taking account of the wider issues?

Clash they are trying to get to involved in the company running and finances, nothing to do with them, wider issues are our workload and the expectations of the membership for the union to look after them.
If they get to embroiled in the running of this company we are screwed, next thing they will be trying to cost everything and "can't give you a payrise, look at the books".
Companies problem not ours.

Well it is our problem is there isn't the money currently to give a decent pay rise without some structural changes to the USO and how operations are run in general.
They still pay our wages and if it isn't financially successful in its current model it is in the best interest of all of us that the top table of our union do crunch the numbers and come up with viable solutions.
Being transparent with this information is it exactly what people want in my opinion.

What are you talking about? We are workers, our only investment in this company is working for them, day to day running is the boards problem.
They haven't got the money to pay us...... Boo-Hoo cry me a river. Maybe you shouldn't be squandering it in the first place.
It's pretty obvious it isn't viable in it's current form, doesn't mean the union we all pay into suddenly joins forces with them, that would lead to a mass exodus from the union.

Well if they haven't got the money to pay us it most certainly will become our problem.
Yes they have squandered money in the past, I'm not denying that but pointing that out doesn't solve anything moving forward.
We have both established that the company isn't viable in its current form, do you believe the direction of the company will benefit from having our representatives negotiating that change or not?
Because from your suggesting the company should have free reign to direct that change with no union involvement.

[Smoothbackground]

Why is the union's priority about the new starters, when it's the old workforce who have paid CWU subs for years!!

It might sound harsh but new starters know what they are in for when they sign up for Royal Mail, It's there in black and white. Whereas we older workers have had the rug pulled from under us, year after year of effective pay cuts (with inflation) and so many failed promises.

New starters are a priority — a burning priority — because the CWU’s mandate and power to act for the staff side demands that at least 50% of employees are members. With 20% of the workforce now being those of us on new contracts, growing week on week, and with very few of us new starters wanting to join the CWU as things stand, it will only be a few years before CWU faces an existential and possibly terminal crisis. As such, the CWU is now trying to show it can represent new starters, old guard, and be all things to all people. Who knows, maybe it can be. Alternatively, as you rightly allude to, there may be a bit of an irreconcilable conflict of interest here for the cwu…?

Membership is always a priority for any union.

You’re a union breaker who is actively seeking to undermine and dissuade anyone from joining. You despise the union.

You’ll need it one day.

if you say so…

[Mickeybrowneyes]

Why is the union's priority about the new starters, when it's the old workforce who have paid CWU subs for years!!

It might sound harsh but new starters know what they are in for when they sign up for Royal Mail, It's there in black and white. Whereas we older workers have had the rug pulled from under us, year after year of effective pay cuts (with inflation) and so many failed promises.

They are not the union's priority.
Every member gets represented with the same level of parity.
Why it is crucial to get all contracts merged is because at the minute we are working with different levels of pay and conditions.
A job of a union is to make sure everyone is treated fair and equal in a workplace.
Right now some full timers are having to do a 37 HR working week compared to others who have to do a 40 HR working week for the same pay while doing exactly the same work.
On top of that they have no delivery supplement or paid breaks which adds another 40 minutes onto their working day.
Any union would want to achieve a merging of contracts.
Expecting a more focused representation based on the length of your membership is completely unfair and against the values of any union.

[scotchy1962]

Empty words you say, daft ideas is what i say.

The question you fail to answer is how do you protect your members' interests in a dying industry?
Whatever you think the role of a union should be doesn't really amount to much in the face of modern problems.

Clash it doesn't matter how much lipstick goes on the pig, it's still a pig.
Modern problems, as you call them, are just the same as the old problems, the letter industry is dying just like the coal industry died and a solution must be found.
Union involvement in a way forward is fine, my problem is the use of costing and delivery methods as part of the unions input, not our place to do that, as i said a lot of people have got a lot of money for trying to solve the problem and the union want to give them the information for free?
It's a bit like what all large companies do, "Come to us with any good ideas on how to improve the company", then when you come up with a idea that saves them millions you get a pat on the back, a hearty handshake and a £10 gift voucher.
No free information and leave the costing and delivery methods to them, but certainly argue against anything you believe to be bogus.
I accept the delivery of letters is dying, it's how we eventually put it out of it's misery that needs sorting.

[scotchy1962]

[quote=Mickeybrowneyes post_id=1109080 time=1732419587 user_id=11335

Well if they haven't got the money to pay us it most certainly will become our problem.
Yes they have squandered money in the past, I'm not denying that but pointing that out doesn't solve anything moving forward.
We have both established that the company isn't viable in its current form, do you believe the direction of the company will benefit from having our representatives negotiating that change or not?
Because from your suggesting the company should have free reign to direct that change with no union involvement.
[/quote]
I don't think i said anywhere "no union involvement", what i did say is that union involvement in the day to day running of this company shouldn't happen, it's a conflict of interest end of story.
Of course the union should be involved in anything that affects their members, it's the input that annoys me, as has been already seen from Martins post the costing of things has suddenly become key to anything, don't remember it being part of it before, and therefore you are starting to go exactly where the company wants you to go.
They know that anything the union asks for can be defeated by proving the costing wrong.
Whatever happened to a good old fashioned pay-rise, no strings attached and given just to purely keep up with the cost of living...... it died when the union decided to cost things and the company said "Your wrong" we can't afford anything, but here's more work for your members.

[LouBarlow]

Empty words you say, daft ideas is what i say.

The question you fail to answer is how do you protect your members' interests in a dying industry?
Whatever you think the role of a union should be doesn't really amount to much in the face of modern problems.

Clash it doesn't matter how much lipstick goes on the pig, it's still a pig.
Modern problems, as you call them, are just the same as the old problems, the letter industry is dying just like the coal industry died and a solution must be found.
Union involvement in a way forward is fine, my problem is the use of costing and delivery methods as part of the unions input, not our place to do that, as i said a lot of people have got a lot of money for trying to solve the problem and the union want to give them the information for free?
It's a bit like what all large companies do, "Come to us with any good ideas on how to improve the company", then when you come up with a idea that saves them millions you get a pat on the back, a hearty handshake and a £10 gift voucher.
No free information and leave the costing and delivery methods to them, but certainly argue against anything you believe to be bogus.
I accept the delivery of letters is dying, it's how we eventually put it out of it's misery that needs sorting.

I’m not sure comparing our industry with the coal industry is inspiring much hope. That didn’t fare so well. The fact is you have posties here reluctant to accept that the company needs to change to adapt to the market, which is less letters and more parcels. It is naive to believe that things can carry on as they are.

[scotchy1962]

Lou i accept some people seem to think mail isn't going anywhere and we still have to deliver it.
Hate to tell them, but once mail becomes priced up yet again and the USO changes, it will fall into a very quick decline until it reaches some sort of base level under which it probably won't fall much, then once a generation has passed away, who neither use or trust the internet, it will fall off a cliff terminally and the only letters will be tracked or specials.
I see in the new developments with a younger generation that the mail volumes are very low, bills and correspondence on-line, but parcels through the roof so it's swings and roundabouts.
But for the present the company ask to much of us, with too little time to do too much and no respite.

[Mickeybrowneyes]

[quote=Mickeybrowneyes post_id=1109080 time=1732419587 user_id=11335

Well if they haven't got the money to pay us it most certainly will become our problem.
Yes they have squandered money in the past, I'm not denying that but pointing that out doesn't solve anything moving forward.
We have both established that the company isn't viable in its current form, do you believe the direction of the company will benefit from having our representatives negotiating that change or not?
Because from your suggesting the company should have free reign to direct that change with no union involvement.

I don't think i said anywhere "no union involvement", what i did say is that union involvement in the day to day running of this company shouldn't happen, it's a conflict of interest end of story.
Of course the union should be involved in anything that affects their members, it's the input that annoys me, as has been already seen from Martins post the costing of things has suddenly become key to anything, don't remember it being part of it before, and therefore you are starting to go exactly where the company wants you to go.
They know that anything the union asks for can be defeated by proving the costing wrong.
Whatever happened to a good old fashioned pay-rise, no strings attached and given just to purely keep up with the cost of living...... it died when the union decided to cost things and the company said "Your wrong" we can't afford anything, but here's more work for your members.
[/quote]

The costing is relevant to the conversation.
It's important that the union are transparent with all the finer details of the negotiations and the position they are starting from.
If the company do not have a plan to start turning over a healthy profit then we won't be getting a pay rise.
It's the reps that have the most experience in how operations work and what could turn the company around again.
Not management or the board.
So it's best for us they help drive the change.

[scotchy1962]

Mickey we will agree to disagree, no matter how you try to swing it i won't believe that unions getting to closely involved won't work against us the workforce.
They can say what they want, but i can already hear the managers "but your union said it is possible" ringing in my ears. If this is the only way forward the workforce are screwed. We have all seen human beings easily swayed by money and power and it's only a matter of time before the union become a extension of management due to it. Reps and wpcs, not all of them, at the moment can be swayed by promises from management, how bad could it get.
Who knows but human nature leads me to believe that a lot of nest feathering will occur, some people can't help it and who knows maybe i would in the same position too.
Whatever way it goes the future is looking bleak...... or will Dan the man come riding in to the rescue?

[Martin Walsh]

A few comments :

1. Scotchy one of the flaws of privatisation is that Royal Mail will go to the market and ask potential investors to invest millions into the company based on projects like coming off planes , reducing sick leave introducing a two tier workforce and reducing jobs. Sometimes investors invest thousands / millions into the company based on this and then when they present the union later with how these proposals impact the workforce it is difficult to change as it has been backed by investors paying huge sums of money.

2. In Germany and some of European countries they have work councils which have design and strategy boards involving unions at the earliest stage of a strategy giving the unions the opportunity to shape and change a strategy. This does not compromise the collective bargaining power of the union but it does give much earlier sight of a proposal and time to shape it.

3. It does not matter who owns the company this industry has less than 5 years to secure its future. It currently has an 8 billion turnover and is possibly going to break even at its full years results.
Wages account for 72% of its turn over. Royal Mail share of parcels has halved since privatisation. Letters are still in decline , downstream access accounts for 70% of letters meaning less revenue and 1st class letters are in decline.

4. Any union who is not going to recognise the above reality is not representing their members interests. We seen other great
industries virtually go to the wall coal , dockyards , print and steel.

5. USO reform will happen next year. The union can stand on the sidelines and watch it happen or it can shape it , change it for the better and can resolve quality , improved attendances including more Saturdays off and resolve a number of outstanding issues such as pay , harmonisation of new entrants, no compulsory redundancies and improved VR.

6. There will be job losses as a result of USO reform. Of Com has said Royal Mail are losing over 400 million from the current USO being in place. The CWU will demand a no compulsory redundancy agreement so the job losses will be through a combination of natural wastage ie through attrition and voluntary redundancy. The number of jobs losses remain uncertain until after the pilot and the CWU have not agreed any number.

7. We could replace those loss jobs with growth through delivery next day parcels up to 20:00. Royal Mail share of next parcels is less than 27% ,80% of next day orders are done between 20:00 and midnight , it cannot connect with core so delivering later in the day and early evening is the only way Royal Mail can increase their share. Before anyone says that people do not want to deliver at this time, there are 6000 individuals who are working up to 20:00 this peak/ Christmas so clearly there is some who would want to deliver at this time.

8. There are over 8000 full time equivalent agency staff working in Royal Mail the bulk of which are working because our members do not want to in a mail centre want to work on a Saturday or at night and in deliveries they do not want to work later or on a Sunday. This is madness in an industry which is facing job cuts. We have got to create innovative duties over 3/4 days which remove agency staff and replace them with well paid permanent jobs.

9. Lastly I have been in Royal Mail and the CWU for 40 years , during that time I have seen unpopular National agreements such as IWM , Way Forward ( the only agreement voted down by the membership on the 1st ballot. ) Pay and Mod ,BT2010 and the latest agreement. Believe me when I say this carrying on striking would in 2023 would have been the worse decision we could have made. Why do you think they delayed the back pay and £500 they were running out of cash !!

10. The takeover and USO reform present the CWU with the best the union with the best opportunity to have a total reset and resolve the outstanding issues. You can either support this or you can stand on the sidelines and support the status quo there is really no other position.

[postmanpatscat2]

A few comments :

1. Scotchy one of the flaws of privatisation is that Royal Mail will go to the market and ask potential investors to invest millions into the company based on projects like coming off planes , reducing sick leave introducing a two tier workforce and reducing jobs. Sometimes investors invest thousands / millions into the company based on this and then when they present the union later with how these proposals impact the workforce it is difficult to change as it has been backed by investors paying huge sums of money.

2. In Germany and some of European countries they have work councils which have design and strategy boards involving unions at the earliest stage of a strategy giving the unions the opportunity to shape and change a strategy. This does not compromise the collective bargaining power of the union but it does give much earlier sight of a proposal and time to shape it.

3. It does not matter who owns the company this industry has less than 5 years to secure its future. It currently has an 8 billion turnover and is possibly going to break even at its full years results.
Wages account for 72% of its turn over. Royal Mail share of parcels has halved since privatisation. Letters are still in decline , downstream access accounts for 70% of letters meaning less revenue and 1st class letters are in decline.

4. Any union who is not going to recognise the above reality is not representing their members interests. We seen other great
industries virtually go to the wall coal , dockyards , print and steel.

5. USO reform will happen next year. The union can stand on the sidelines and watch it happen or it can shape it , change it for the better and can resolve quality , improved attendances including more Saturdays off and resolve a number of outstanding issues such as pay , harmonisation of new entrants, no compulsory redundancies and improved VR.

6. There will be job losses as a result of USO reform. Of Com has said Royal Mail are losing over 400 million from the current USO being in place. The CWU will demand a no compulsory redundancy agreement so the job losses will be through a combination of natural wastage ie through attrition and voluntary redundancy. The number of jobs losses remain uncertain until after the pilot and the CWU have not agreed any number.

7. We could replace those loss jobs with growth through delivery next day parcels up to 20:00. Royal Mail share of next parcels is less than 27% ,80% of next day orders are done between 20:00 and midnight , it cannot connect with core so delivering later in the day and early evening is the only way Royal Mail can increase their share. Before anyone says that people do not want to deliver at this time, there are 6000 individuals who are working up to 20:00 this peak/ Christmas so clearly there is some who would want to deliver at this time.

8. There are over 8000 full time equivalent agency staff working in Royal Mail the bulk of which are working because our members do not want to in a mail centre want to work on a Saturday or at night and in deliveries they do not want to work later or on a Sunday. This is madness in an industry which is facing job cuts. We have got to create innovative duties over 3/4 days which remove agency staff and replace them with well paid permanent jobs.

9. Lastly I have been in Royal Mail and the CWU for 40 years , during that time I have seen unpopular National agreements such as IWM , Way Forward ( the only agreement voted down by the membership on the 1st ballot. ) Pay and Mod ,BT2010 and the latest agreement. Believe me when I say this carrying on striking would in 2023 would have been the worse decision we could have made. Why do you think they delayed the back pay and £500 they were running out of cash !!

10. The takeover and USO reform present the CWU with the best the union with the best opportunity to have a total reset and resolve the outstanding issues. You can either support this or you can stand on the sidelines and support the status quo there is really no other position.

Martin you say that the key is to avoid compulsory reduncancies and the survival of the company (In it's current state) but a lot of the postmen/women at royal mail during the 2023 strikes wanted to leave and had had enough of the company! A lot of people now or who are looking to leave (many with 10+years service) or have left would love a compulsory redundancy, that's leaving with something. YOur completely fighting the wrong battle.

And in my opinion that 'Thompson' bloke ran rings around you, we should have continued striking and snubbed that last lousy offer as the job is now barely worth doing. There is no way the government/public would have allowed royal mail to go under and would have to have been saved. Instead the buisinss keeps going, most posties now miserable while making those greedy fat cats at the top yet more money!

Sometimes in life you just have to do what is right and if the ship goes down, the ship goes down.