LTB 312/24 – SISO Overtime Management – Business Recovery, Transformation & Growth Agreement (Appendix 5 – Data Use and Performance Management)

[ted_e_bear]

That’s a good idea actually.

If it is a good idea for overtime, is it also a good idea to introduce payment per item to the core duty as well?

Good point, I actually thought of that as I was typing it out, and worried myself at the prospect of the subject of such as duty franchising rearing it's ugly head which I'm assuming no one wants.

[Tman]

In what world, other than RM, would anyone consider it "right" to expect O/T payments for time when they weren't working?

If they go down the route of paying overtime by actual time taken rather than load/distance, the fastest staff will be penalised. How is that right?

They don't. As ever, the work expands to fill the allotted time.
RM are effectively paying for your time at so many hours per week. Cut those hours short and you still expect to get the same pay?
You've never worked in the Real World, I take it?

[Barnacle]

In what world, other than RM, would anyone consider it "right" to expect O/T payments for time when they weren't working?

If they go down the route of paying overtime by actual time taken rather than load/distance, the fastest staff will be penalised. How is that right?

They don't. As ever, the work expands to fill the allotted time.
RM are effectively paying for your time at so many hours per week. Cut those hours short and you still expect to get the same pay?
You've never worked in the Real World, I take it?

Worked for decades in the real world.

We’re talking about overtime. How do you incentivise someone who is quick, to do overtime if they know that slow Bob will be paid double for taking out the same volume?

[Smoothbackground]

=Barnacle post_id=1103404 time=1727256807 user_id=121883]

It is my understanding that that is exactly what they intend to do ie. If you complete the OT in an hour instead of the agreed 1.30, they will deduct the 30mins from your payment.

Of course they intend that, but in the case above they'll pay for 60 minutes. Why would they allow employees to claim for O/T they haven't done when there's an accurate time clock system in place showing that they didn't work for the full 90 minutes?

My argument is this, and this supposed you finished your walk at finish time and THEN started the overtime, doing your overtime within your walk time is ridiculous:

Bob and Betty are given an equal amount of overtime work, they are both going to be paid 2hrs. Betty finishes hers in 1.30, Bob takes the full 2hrs.

Both should still be paid 2hrs because it is overtime. Both have carried the same weight and walked the same miles. Betty shouldn’t be penalised for being faster.

In the scenario you outline, and of course ignoring the fairness or otherwise of it, Betty would be claiming 30 mins of ghost overtime. As you have been at pains to point out elsewhere, this is fraudulent and against rules. Reflecting the actual time taken, Bob should be paid 2hrs of OT, Betty 90 minutes.

[Tman]

Worked for decades in the real world.
We’re talking about overtime. How do you incentivise someone who is quick, to do overtime if they know that slow Bob will be paid double for taking out the same volume?

As SB says above most succinctly-
As you have been at pains to point out elsewhere, this is fraudulent and against rules. Reflecting the actual time taken, Bob should be paid 2hrs of OT, Betty 90 minutes.

[Barnacle]

=Barnacle post_id=1103404 time=1727256807 user_id=121883]

It is my understanding that that is exactly what they intend to do ie. If you complete the OT in an hour instead of the agreed 1.30, they will deduct the 30mins from your payment.

Of course they intend that, but in the case above they'll pay for 60 minutes. Why would they allow employees to claim for O/T they haven't done when there's an accurate time clock system in place showing that they didn't work for the full 90 minutes?

My argument is this, and this supposed you finished your walk at finish time and THEN started the overtime, doing your overtime within your walk time is ridiculous:

Bob and Betty are given an equal amount of overtime work, they are both going to be paid 2hrs. Betty finishes hers in 1.30, Bob takes the full 2hrs.

Both should still be paid 2hrs because it is overtime. Both have carried the same weight and walked the same miles. Betty shouldn’t be penalised for being faster.

In the scenario you outline, and of course ignoring the fairness or otherwise of it, Betty would be claiming 30 mins of ghost overtime. As you have been at pains to point out elsewhere, this is fraudulent and against rules. Reflecting the actual time taken, Bob should be paid 2hrs of OT, Betty 90 minutes.

Two different situations. Completing your overtime during your contracted hours is effectively being paid double to do the same volume of work as anyone with a long walk. No one should be doing that.

In a real overtime situation where you are genuinely doing extra after your contracted hours, is a different circumstance and their threat to pay overtime to SISO will penalise the fastest. That’s the conundrum to resolve.

[Barnacle]

Worked for decades in the real world.
We’re talking about overtime. How do you incentivise someone who is quick, to do overtime if they know that slow Bob will be paid double for taking out the same volume?

As SB says above most succinctly-
As you have been at pains to point out elsewhere, this is fraudulent and against rules. Reflecting the actual time taken, Bob should be paid 2hrs of OT, Betty 90 minutes.

Answered above.

[Tman]

Replied to, but not answered.
O/T is offered to achieve set task(s) for the company's benefit, and while a "good" boss will at least attempt to spread it around fairly, that doesn't mean that there'll be differing amounts/hours for different people depending on how fast/slow they work.
Never has been, never will be.
You work until your clock-off time and are paid accordingly, and that ensures the boss's favourites don't get it all.
What do you think, RM are going to introduce Piece-work or something?

[Barnacle]

Replied to, but not answered.
O/T is offered to achieve set task(s) for the company's benefit, and while a "good" boss will at least attempt to spread it around fairly, that doesn't mean that there'll be differing amounts/hours for different people depending on how fast/slow they work.
Never has been, never will be.
You work until your clock-off time and are paid accordingly, and that ensures the boss's favourites don't get it all.
What do you think, RM are going to introduce Piece-work or something?

You’ve just re-explained the issue with paying overtime to SISO. It penalises the fast people for being fast. They’ve taken the same volume of mail and walked the same number of miles as slow Bob, but will be paid less because they are fast.

That’s an unfair consequence of paying overtime to SISO which needs to addressed before it is introduced

[Tman]

Round and round in circles...
So again, how do you think any/every other firm using clock systems and offering O/T manage do it? Names in a hat? Tossing a coin? Drawing straws, what?
Or give all the O/T to the Slow Bobs or the Fast Bobs just to be seen as being fair? You can't be that naive.

[Barnacle]

Round and round in circles...
So again, how do you think any/every other firm using clock systems and offering O/T manage do it? Names in a hat? Tossing a coin? Drawing straws, what?
Or give all the O/T to the Slow Bobs or the Fast Bobs just to be seen as being fair? You can't be that naive.

You’re ignoring the issue.

Most other jobs have an opening and closing time, a beginning and end of shift. So if you are asked to work over, you stay until the end. The same issue doesn’t arise.

[Clappedoutpostie]

In what world, other than RM, would anyone consider it "right" to expect O/T payments for time when they weren't working?

It’s been like this for a long time because our overtime rate is rubbish and the extra time “made” makes it a higher rate. We have people running around all day as they are doing an extra job on overtime, I think the company will have a shock if they pull the rug on pre agreed overtime as nobody will bother anymore.

[Tman]

You’ve just re-explained the issue with paying overtime to SISO. It penalises the fast people for being fast.

So you've said, so what would be your solution to this "problem" then?

[Barnacle]

You’ve just re-explained the issue with paying overtime to SISO. It penalises the fast people for being fast.

So you've said, so what would be your solution to this "problem" then?

I’ve already written what I think regarding overtime done AFTER contracted hours. Equal pay for equal work. You shouldn’t be paid less than slow Bob for doing the same amount of work.

[Smoothbackground]

The fair and logical outcome is that Bob loses out on most if not all overtime as he is a slow coach and costs the company more in OT as a result.