ALL IS NOT LOST

[Carnoustie]

I think it was a case of RM playing the CWU for a chump. While the horse bolted in the background, the union was trying to decide if it was a Unicorn or a thoroughbred, in fact it turned out to be a donkey.

[BELIAL]

Battle weary? most of us were just warming up

[pinstripe]

I think we must unite, then fight. At the moment RM have divided us, but the waverers are coming around. There will always be the give up mob, the ones who don't use their vote and complain we can never win, but even they must accept that some of us are still willing to stand for their rights.

[Night Tonic]

You're quite right pinstripe although it might be a bit simplistic to narrow it down to fighters and those who give up. Generally most of us have mixed feelings. I'm a stong believer in not being beaten by bigger people but I watched the entire parliament debate on PO closures today and one thing both Hutton and McFadden made clear was that biggest reason for shutting PO's was affordability and what the tax payer would put up with. Pan that out on paying pensions and its pretty obvious that NO money will be coming from government. This country has I think,the biggest debt in Europe.

Fight yes, but with what in mind? The best we're likely to get out of this is some climb-down on elements of RM's proposal but if there is, there won't be much. Every single public pension plan (and lots of private ones) is struggling with the fact that people are living longer and pension providers paying out more. Even if there wasn't a deficit (and some doubt that), we'd still have to have revised pension plans. That doesn't mean I'd roll over, I won't, but best we'll get is small change - particularly when the unions left the decision on pensions so ambiguous.