Have to vote No

[LouBarlow]

Lol this site has 2500 members. The union is 100,000+ strong. Trying to find trends on here, where the vocal minority offer extremist views, is beyond unscientific.

Yeah, I wasn't submitting a paper for peer review thanks. But it is obvious that a yes vote is more detrimental to the union numbers than a no and a no vote is more detrimental to the union leadership than a yes. And we can base that on historical observations if you like.

We can be be even more obvious if you like. A no vote is detrimental to everybody involved, which is why RM, the CWU and the PEC are saying to vote yes. Why do you think this is?

[Foxel]

We can be be even more obvious if you like. A no vote is detrimental to everybody involved, which is why RM, the CWU and the PEC are saying to vote yes. Why do you think this is?

Obviously, that is what you like, but is also unfounded. I'm talking about union membership impact. Broadening the scope of my comments leads to all sorts of issues and fallacies. You are pushing your yes vote agender, I'm pushing none.

[guardianangel]

Spot on the exact reason i voted NO,but i'd go further and if they wanted to bring in seasonal hours i'd rather see more innovative shift patterns with maybe a longer shift with more days off,maybe mail in the morning come back take a break and parcels in afternoon,maybe 3 days on 4 off or 4 on 3 off with maybe only working 1 in 2 weekends ,why are we still working 1980's shifts,the world has moved on in the 24 hour sector but royal mail have some dinosaurs at the top as does the CWU.

Whilst I agree with the sentiment of breaking up the day so that we are not on deliveries non-stop for 5 or 6 hours; the company don't want us to have innovative shift patterns where we deliver the mail in the mornings and parcels in the afternoon/evening simply as its not cost effective. Some of our duties are rural and takes 40 minutes plus to get from the office to the first delivery point. If they were to do a shift that you've mentioned then they would spend over 2 hours a day just driving a van from A to B, than doing any meaningful delivery work.

I have mentioned that on this forum that there could be 4 day weeks but that would involve a larger outdoor delivery span due to the reduction of indoor work. 37 divided by 4 days = 9.25 hours a day. That's a lot of hours to be doing delivery work and would also mean that the company would need to have more staff at a time when the company are looking to reduce staff.

People were doing 9 hour days on the 9 day fortnight,rurals could stay the same ,they should have lots of different shift patterns to have a work life balance.they could still all start the same time,there are guys in our office who would be happy to job share part time,i don't see what the problem would be,why can't a company accommodate different working patterns,keep your work force happy and it would be surprising how efficient they become.

[Woody Guthrie]

There's still the fixation on what else we can do if there's a no vote.

On the one hand you're saying vote no, think about the future if you vote yes.

On the other hand you're saying vote no but don't think about the future if you vote no.

That's at best dishonest.
It's almost deceitful.

What it does suggest is that even you are aware that there isn't any kind of plan or strategy beyond voting no. It's a dead end, a purely emotional response, the democratic equivalent of stamping your feet.

It's understandable, reality has checked in at the Royal Mail hotel and it isn't welcome, not by me either but I'm not going to burn the hotel down just to make my point.

It's a s**t deal but the reality is it's the best s**t deal we're going to see and it only gets worse from here.

How do I know that?
It's not difficult to predict the behaviour of a company like Royal Mail is it?
We only have two options.

Try to somehow find someone who can re-engage a tired and worn out membership still trying to recover financially from 18 days of strike action and no payrise to speak of and get them to take much more strike action, not days at a time but weeks.

Or beg.

I'm not confident the first is even feasible or fair to ask from the members and I'm begging for no-one.

This agreement has put us between a rock and a hard place, rejecting it will put us between the devil's own firey arse cheeks.

[k979aaa]

Voting for anything is a bit disingenuous these days four months ago we need a yes vote to strike and now we need a yes vote to agree to the shite we voted against by our own union. The fact is too many are tired of fighting for a lost cause and that cause is the CWU!

[aiden01]

Voting for anything is a bit disingenuous these days four months ago we need a yes vote to strike and now we need a yes vote to agree to the shite we voted against by our own union. The fact is too many are tired of fighting for a lost cause and that cause is the CWU!

Just vote as im sure you have either way i will stand by cwu.

[k979aaa]

Voting for anything is a bit disingenuous these days four months ago we need a yes vote to strike and now we need a yes vote to agree to the shite we voted against by our own union. The fact is too many are tired of fighting for a lost cause and that cause is the CWU!

Just vote as im sure you have either way i will stand by cwu.

They have not helped themselves nor the people they represent and I don't know the future but a failed union in terms of action and leadership and communication!

[scotchy1962]

There's still the fixation on what else we can do if there's a no vote.

On the one hand you're saying vote no, think about the future if you vote yes.

On the other hand you're saying vote no but don't think about the future if you vote no.

That's at best dishonest.
It's almost deceitful.

What it does suggest is that even you are aware that there isn't any kind of plan or strategy beyond voting no. It's a dead end, a purely emotional response, the democratic equivalent of stamping your feet.

It's understandable, reality has checked in at the Royal Mail hotel and it isn't welcome, not by me either but I'm not going to burn the hotel down just to make my point.

It's a s**t deal but the reality is it's the best s**t deal we're going to see and it only gets worse from here.

How do I know that?
It's not difficult to predict the behaviour of a company like Royal Mail is it?
We only have two options.

Try to somehow find someone who can re-engage a tired and worn out membership still trying to recover financially from 18 days of strike action and no payrise to speak of and get them to take much more strike action, not days at a time but weeks.

Or beg.

I'm not confident the first is even feasible or fair to ask from the members and I'm begging for no-one.

This agreement has put us between a rock and a hard place, rejecting it will put us between the devil's own firey arse cheeks.

Never once Woody have i said vote NO. I might have said i am voting NO but i haven't pushed anything onto anyone.
I believe your fixation on this vote is swaying any impartiality you and the union should have.
Because i don't give you a alternative you have decided that i am the enemy and all i say is deceitful, how exactly is that?
At what stage did i become a union negotiator/strategist, why do i have to give you a alternative?
The absolute capitulation of this union is the reason for this agreement and vote, not the membership, but now the union are treating us like RM do and we are all a problem if we don't vote the way they want.
Peddling your doomsday prophecies in the event of a NO vote because there's no alternative is bull. the reason the union aren't putting a alternative out there is because they don't want to give any alternative for people to grab onto and vote NO.
Its a s**t deal but the best we can get is a cop out because the union have given up not us.
Whatever way the vote falls i can look at myself in the mirror in the morning and not feel guilty, not sure if some other people will.

[timbo1234]

I voted yes and have no problems with my conscience when I look in the mirror. The CWU, after months of negotiation, recommends acceptance of the proposal. It is not the result that everyone thought it would be or wants but then I don't think anyone expected an employer to behave the way RM has done for almost the past 2 years. Praising the workers one minute, squandering profits the next, then blaming the workers for all it's problems. The deal is not good but based on what RM is capable of I am not prepared to gamble with the future. A no vote might well allow people to vent their anger to RM but the dire consequences it might bring have been outlined by the CWU. If you are a member of the CWU & RM conspiracy theory group who believe it's all a stitch up to save bonuses and jobs at the top then you can ignore all the above.

[X_hamster]

VOTE NO

[LouBarlow]

We can be be even more obvious if you like. A no vote is detrimental to everybody involved, which is why RM, the CWU and the PEC are saying to vote yes. Why do you think this is?

Obviously, that is what you like, but is also unfounded. I'm talking about union membership impact. Broadening the scope of my comments leads to all sorts of issues and fallacies. You are pushing your yes vote agender, I'm pushing none.

I’m pushing a ‘secure our jobs’ agenda. I’ve had nothing, nothing from those suggesting voting no will in any way improve my work life going forward. Care to be the first?

[groundhog_day]

It's a s**t deal but the reality is it's the best s**t deal we're going to see and it only gets worse from here.

This is the truth of the situation.

If I was still at RM I would now be reluctantly voting Yes but would be aware that the tide has well and truly turned now and there is no going back.

I left RM 18 months ago after a revision in my DO made it clear the way things were heading within the company. Fortunately I had an opportunity to go back to a previous career but I know that's not possible for everyone and RM is still, at the moment, well paid within the delivery sector. It's down to each person to decide what the best option is for them in terms of staying or finding another job.

[Jen1]

Why not make it a 3 tier workforce? It’s going to become a 2 tier workplace already with the conditions for new starters

Put the yes voters on the later shift with the new terms and pay rise, they could mop up whatever gets left from the earlier shift or do the dedicated parcel routes

Leave the no voters as they are that way everyone is happy

I don’t begrudge anyone getting a pay rise if they’re willing to work the later shifts and it would give incentive for some to do the designated parcel routes (nobody has expressed interest in that at our office)

It could be an option depending on the amount of work and the percentage of yes to no votes

[seesred]

The problem with voting yes to this deal is that it looks a lot like the victim appeasing the bully in the hope that the hurting will stop for a while. Maybe it will, but it's not like RM bosses have got anyone else to pick on, so they'll be back for you soon enough. I understand that people have different circumstances and maybe people feel pushed into a corner where they have no choice. I wouldn't want to work or live that way, and I was one who would rather see the company collapse than give in to that kind of treatment. So I got out. I'm still coming back here though, to see what's going on, so I hope people do get a resolution they can live with. I couldn't.

[richietns]

Why not make it a 3 tier workforce? It’s going to become a 2 tier workplace already with the conditions for new starters

Put the yes voters on the later shift with the new terms and pay rise, they could mop up whatever gets left from the earlier shift or do the dedicated parcel routes

Leave the no voters as they are that way everyone is happy

I don’t begrudge anyone getting a pay rise if they’re willing to work the later shifts and it would give incentive for some to do the designated parcel routes (nobody has expressed interest in that at our office)

It could be an option depending on the amount of work and the percentage of yes to no votes

Even if you vote no you will be working later as the mail and parcels are going by road and rail regardless.