CWU : Ballot papers start to land from today : BUSINESS RECOVERY, TRANSFORMATION AND GROWTH AGREEMENT - CWU MEMBERS BALLOT - VOTE YES

[Jen1]

This deal might work for you but not everyone is in the same situation as you are

This deal doesn't work for me but the alternative works even less.
I'm not prepared to pretend to myself that there's some "better deal" out there that Royal Mail have been keeping up their sleeves for just this occasion.

The alternative to this agreement will be messy and dangerous and will more than likely end in a more "crap" situation for both of us.

What then?

Will the no voters hold their hands up and say sorry we screwed up your terms and conditions Woody or will they continue to have a "clear conscience"?

The whole reason we are voting no is because this deal does screw up our terms and conditions to a level that is not acceptable

If the board can’t find an alternative solution to later start/finish times to encompass the loss of the use of air transport (which only accounts for 5% of mail) then I think rather than sack your entire workforce we should be looking at getting a new board

Why are they not lobbying the government for an extended delivery period for mail that would ordinarily come by air?

If the government is really serious about reducing this country’s carbon footprint then I’m sure it would take into account all the posties that will be contributing to rush hour traffic due to these later start/finish times

I mean if your journey home normally takes you 15min but because of traffic it takes 30min then you must be using more petrol, multiply that with every working day and every single postie I feel like that’s a strong argument

[Woody Guthrie]

I've put those arguments forward many times.
Nobody is interested.

The changes are about cost.
Nothing else.

[Jen1]

I've put those arguments forward many times.
Nobody is interested.

The changes are about cost.
Nothing else.

But they’ll still be saving money if they don’t have to use air

We need to give them a big incentive to listen and that’s why I’m voting no

[Anon14]

Royal Mail are lying to Parliamentary committees, to local MP's, to the media and public and to OFCOM. What makes you think they aren't lying to our union leaders?

Lying about what? And what evidence do you have to back this up? Evidence that RM, the CWU, the PEC and the independent arbitrators involved in negotiations aren’t privy to.

Did you watch the Parliamentary Committee hearings? Thompson sat there and lied about tracking workers via the "PVA's", staff being disciplined after being flagged on PDAs, about "rogue managers" telling staff to prioritize Tracked items, leaving mail in frames etc. I've also been in contact with my local MP and have written testimony which shows, at least at local level, major discrepancies in what they have been told and what is actually the case. I've witnessed first hand, managers clearing offices because they are "being inspected today" and have told us to clear frames regardless of whether or not we have time to complete. I've heard them on calls stating the office is clear when it is clearly not. I've also read several mainstream media articles where a spokesperson for Royal Mail has refuted claims that there are Nationwide issues regarding people not getting a 6 day mail service. Where is OFCOM? How do you think Royal Mail are continuing to fail the USO daily if they're being fully transparent with "independent arbitrators"?

Granted it's mostly what I've witnessed at local level but I strongly suspect it isn't just rogue managers and it's happening Nationwide to varying degrees. The fact that 1000's of us sent evidence to Darren Jones MP refuting the lies of ST prompting a second committee, would suggest this too.

I get it that members are feeling demoralised, this dispute (by RM's design) has been allowed to drag on for far too long. The job as we knew it has been obliterated through EA revisions and many people have quit the job entirely. Exactly what I suspect it was designed to do. The more people on the older contracts they can get out the door for free the better as far as the board is concerned. Well I'm not going anywhere and I'm not voting Yes to this sell out deal. I'm all for change if it's change for the better but this is clearly an attack on our T&Cs in the name of "modernisation" which seems to mean you do more for less. We're actually not that far away from being on minimum wage at this rate. Yes it's considered unskilled but it can be bloody brutal in the middle of winter and the wages should reflect this, as should the sick pay. I also don't fancy working in the dark either which we inevitably will when the later start/finish times come in.

The argument that we should vote yes because it's the best we are going to be offered doesn't cut it. Woody you're spinning this like a no vote is the weak option...."going back to Royal Mail cap in hand and begging for more". To me it's weak to accept these rotten T&Cs and real terms pay cut. If it was just the "pay rise/cut" without the attack on our start/finish times, seasonal working patterns, the sick pay, IHR etc. I would vote yes. As it stands I cannot, in good conscience, vote for something that will change the job to the extent that it is no longer the same job I signed up for. The early start/finish time is one of the main draws of this job for me as it allows me to take care of my other responsibilities outside of work. I know I'm not alone with this either. If this comes in I'll have to look for another job with similar hours which I'm guessing will be extremely difficult.

Also, due to the nature of the job i.e the physicality, being outdoors in all weather, the pressure from management to take more etc. it's no wonder we have such a high sickness rate. Any attack on that I cannot support either. Voting for something based on 'better the devil you know' is a legitimate strategy and I don't blame anyone who feels this is the case. I will not vote for something that I know is bad just because I'm led to believe the alternative MIGHT be worse. I'm willing to take that risk and continue to fight. If by some miracle the vote comes back as majority 'No' we need a change in leadership because this lot have messed this up spectacularly from day one. Poor communication, botched strikes and out of touch rhetoric. The last Live "debate" was the final slap in the face for me, refusing to acknowledge legitimate concerns of members and deleting comments on the only mode of communication available to members. All talk, tea and biscuits and no action. Win the vote, win the dispute? This doesn't feel like winning does it?

[Mr Rush]

Why are they not lobbying the government for an extended delivery period for mail that would ordinarily come by air?

The danger is that the government might acquiesce and leave them without an excuse for later deliveries. Instead they'll badger the government to axe Saturday letters for the fourth time in a year.

[LouBarlow]

Royal Mail are lying to Parliamentary committees, to local MP's, to the media and public and to OFCOM. What makes you think they aren't lying to our union leaders?

Lying about what? And what evidence do you have to back this up? Evidence that RM, the CWU, the PEC and the independent arbitrators involved in negotiations aren’t privy to.

Did you watch the Parliamentary Committee hearings? Thompson sat there and lied about tracking workers via the "PVA's", staff being disciplined after being flagged on PDAs, about "rogue managers" telling staff to prioritize Tracked items, leaving mail in frames etc. I've also been in contact with my local MP and have written testimony which shows, at least at local level, major discrepancies in what they have been told and what is actually the case. I've witnessed first hand, managers clearing offices because they are "being inspected today" and have told us to clear frames regardless of whether or not we have time to complete. I've heard them on calls stating the office is clear when it is clearly not. I've also read several mainstream media articles where a spokesperson for Royal Mail has refuted claims that there are Nationwide issues regarding people not getting a 6 day mail service. Where is OFCOM? How do you think Royal Mail are continuing to fail the USO daily if they're being fully transparent with "independent arbitrators"?

Granted it's mostly what I've witnessed at local level but I strongly suspect it isn't just rogue managers and it's happening Nationwide to varying degrees. The fact that 1000's of us sent evidence to Darren Jones MP refuting the lies of ST prompting a second committee, would suggest this too.

I get it that members are feeling demoralised, this dispute (by RM's design) has been allowed to drag on for far too long. The job as we knew it has been obliterated through EA revisions and many people have quit the job entirely. Exactly what I suspect it was designed to do. The more people on the older contracts they can get out the door for free the better as far as the board is concerned. Well I'm not going anywhere and I'm not voting Yes to this sell out deal. I'm all for change if it's change for the better but this is clearly an attack on our T&Cs in the name of "modernisation" which seems to mean you do more for less. We're actually not that far away from being on minimum wage at this rate. Yes it's considered unskilled but it can be bloody brutal in the middle of winter and the wages should reflect this, as should the sick pay. I also don't fancy working in the dark either which we inevitably will when the later start/finish times come in.

The argument that we should vote yes because it's the best we are going to be offered doesn't cut it. Woody you're spinning this like a no vote is the weak option...."going back to Royal Mail cap in hand and begging for more". To me it's weak to accept these rotten T&Cs and real terms pay cut. If it was just the "pay rise/cut" without the attack on our start/finish times, seasonal working patterns, the sick pay, IHR etc. I would vote yes. As it stands I cannot, in good conscience, vote for something that will change the job to the extent that it is no longer the same job I signed up for. The early start/finish time is one of the main draws of this job for me as it allows me to take care of my other responsibilities outside of work. I know I'm not alone with this either. If this comes in I'll have to look for another job with similar hours which I'm guessing will be extremely difficult.

Also, due to the nature of the job i.e the physicality, being outdoors in all weather, the pressure from management to take more etc. it's no wonder we have such a high sickness rate. Any attack on that I cannot support either. Voting for something based on 'better the devil you know' is a legitimate strategy and I don't blame anyone who feels this is the case. I will not vote for something that I know is bad just because I'm led to believe the alternative MIGHT be worse. I'm willing to take that risk and continue to fight. If by some miracle the vote comes back as majority 'No' we need a change in leadership because this lot have messed this up spectacularly from day one. Poor communication, botched strikes and out of touch rhetoric. The last Live "debate" was the final slap in the face for me, refusing to acknowledge legitimate concerns of members and deleting comments on the only mode of communication available to members. All talk, tea and biscuits and no action. Win the vote, win the dispute? This doesn't feel like winning does it?

This is all great and dandy, but you said they were lying about the financial state of the company, which you have offered nothing to back up. At all. Like everyone else I ask that question, they serve up distractive bluster, because they can never answer it.

[Jen1]

Why are they not lobbying the government for an extended delivery period for mail that would ordinarily come by air?

The danger is that the government might acquiesce and leave them without an excuse for later deliveries. Instead they'll badger the government to axe Saturday letters for the fourth time in a year.

That is probably true

[Woody Guthrie]

As it stands I cannot, in good conscience, vote for something that will change the job to the extent that it is no longer the same job I signed up for.

I believe that's exactly what you're voting for by voting no.

This idea that this is a vote between the proposed agreement and some fantasy alternative agreement that doesn't change start times, doesn't bring in seasonal working, doesn't change IHR terms or sick pay is absolutely frightening.

By voting no you're actively choosing to plunge us back into the position we were in last year when the business was ignoring the union, imposing its own ideas and dismissing members and reps left, right and centre but worse than that, this time it's with a divided membership, a completely undermined CWU leadership and a business in even deeper s**t than last year.

That's what in "good conscience" you are voting for.
It's time you guys owned it.

[2yearpostie]

Whens the result in? Im out of touch since I left the union.

[nuisance]

It's time you guys owned it.

Oh, do not even go there.

This shitshow is on 2 groups of people, RM and the CWU Union leadership.

If you'd asked me all the way through this dispute, "If you can only have one, your t & cs or a payrise, which would it be?" I'd have said, narkily, "the t & cs". I'm far from alone in prioritising my working conditions, security in ill health, and my work-life balance over money.

The union gambled our t & cs when they lead us into this and then f****d them when they combined the ballots.

As for RM, they do not deserve any staff, let alone their workforce who have seen their hard earned great reputation of being trustworthy grafters left in tatters by company policies that they couldn't even own up to under oath.

If you're trying to garner union support you're going the wrong way about it with comments like that. Just get back to representing your membership and stop spouting absolute lies.

[pieoftheday]

As it stands I cannot, in good conscience, vote for something that will change the job to the extent that it is no longer the same job I signed up for.

I believe that's exactly what you're voting for by voting no.

This idea that this is a vote between the proposed agreement and some fantasy alternative agreement that doesn't change start times, doesn't bring in seasonal working, doesn't change IHR terms or sick pay is absolutely frightening.

By voting no you're actively choosing to plunge us back into the position we were in last year when the business was ignoring the union, imposing its own ideas and dismissing members and reps left, right and centre but worse than that, this time it's with a divided membership, a completely undermined CWU leadership and a business in even deeper s**t than last year.

That's what in "good conscience" you are voting for.
It's time you guys owned it.

I'm not voting no to the proposed agreement and some fantasy , I'm voting no to the proposed agreement,

[norris9]

I am voting yes, taking the money, then leaving within 2 years from now.

[pieoftheday]

I am voting yes, taking the money, then leaving within 2 years from now.

I'm 37yrs in and in 2yrs I could probably call it a day, but I just can't vote for s**t even though it affects me far less than others

[Woody Guthrie]

I'm not voting no to the proposed agreement and some fantasy , I'm voting no to the proposed agreement,

So what are you hoping for as a result of voting No?

[pieoftheday]

I'm not voting no to the proposed agreement and some fantasy , I'm voting no to the proposed agreement,

So what are you hoping for as a result of voting No?

Sorry Woodoy I got bored and went to the pub . I dunno what will happen as a result of a no vote, the ballot asks us to vote yes or no on the proposed agreement, it doesn't say , bear in mind if you vote no you'll have come with an alternative