It is your right not to believe the dire financial state the company is but ask yourself why the PEC, the CWU and RM all agree. Given how bitter the dispute has been why do you think they are all conspiring to lie to you?
Also just use your eyes. Mail is drying up even parcels. With costs all rising too it is easy to see why RM are in this mess.
I have given plenty of facts on this forum regarding the financial position of the company but it's up to people if they clearly choose to see otherwise. It's like telling people that father Xmas doesn't exist - some people will still say that he does because they believe what other people say regardless! lol. I did point out months ago that the company would blame the strikes for the financial position and would try and paint a really black picture of the financial position. Lo and behold they have done that and it's not difficult to understand why.
Your confirmation bias is based on the PEC, the CWU and RM. Now I didn't say that they were conspiring against us but it has been a very bitter dispute and the union are desperate for us all to vote yes and move on. Maybe in some ways that could be the best option......do you see how I have opened my mind up there? I certainly think that the company will still plough on with many of the changes regardless and going on any unofficial strikes for me is a definite no.
But I am also using my eyes as well - the company have purposely made duties bigger with these revisions to account for the decline in letter volumes. They have also ramped up the postage on letters and USO failures are still widespread on a daily basis. This isn't due to the financial position but the reality of a privatised public service where shareholders are chasing the money because parcels provides most of the revenue. The only issue with parcel deliveries though is that we are trying to compete with the rest of the industry which is entirely bogus self-employed labour that is barely paid above the min wage. Something tells me that this is where we are heading - with or without a deal.
On the face of it, shareholder value is the dumbest idea in the world.
Weighing it all up, you have to be crazy to vote no....
Voting no =
- The unknown.
- Having to strike and lose more money.
- We might end up with a crapper deal down the line.
- Risk of recession looming, they might not offer the same pay rise again.
- Damages the company more = more chance of less pay being offered.
- Mortgages and rental costs going through the roof, surely most people need the pay rise now and not risk a worse deal coming later.
This change that is happening is inevitable whether you vote yes or no.
There is no chance of us getting an improved offer by voting no, and would cause so much faffing about for many more months.
Vote YES.
SUPPOSITION - you don't know any of this you haven't got a crystal ball just RM and CWU say so,personally i think you'd be crazy to vote yes with lower IHR,under inflation payrise,sick pay attacked, seasonal hours where you wont get paid for 8 months for hours worked,flexibility at RM beck and call,stage warnings lowered and easier to be gotten rid of,conducted on pda actuals, and change of hours where you won't be able to care for your family and work life balance gone with RM owning you,now that's fact we know this, your outcome is hearsay.
GAMBLE - you dont know the consequences of a no vote but we have been told. Obviously you believe in the RM AND CWU conspiracy theory that seems to be an excuse to vote no. So vote no and see what happens if it is a NO vote. I am not willing to gamble.
Im not believing anything its a s**t deal and that is it any union agreeing to getting rid of sick pay ,ihr and working extra hours and not getting paid for 8 months is not a union in my eyes ,that is my red line and as long as that is in any deal i will always vote NO those parts of t's and c's should be sacrosanct for any union,i couldn't vote yes for that no matter what happens,i'd rather lose my job.
Maybe these negotiators of ours will suddenly find their A game from somewhere and pull a surprising rabbit from a hat nobody could find in 12 months.
Both scenarios could happen but when you're picking a horse to back you look at form first.
I don't bet on the horses and you shouldn't always bet on the favourite.....
However, the odds are clearly stacked against us resisting change. Royal Mail have been wanting to change our ways of working for a long time. They are not going to spend billions of pounds on parcel hubs and not have them just sat there and it is this which is driving all the changes imho. The carbon neutral thing and stopping planes is just a convenient excuse for saying that parcels and letters will be arriving in delivery offices later. I'm sure our customers are more bothered about the cost of sending parcels rather than how much CO2 it uses.
On the face of it, shareholder value is the dumbest idea in the world.
I was a definite no vote. But now I'm just not sure what way to vote. Do I like this deal?... absolutely not! do I honestly believe that this CWU leadership can get us a better deal? Not a chance.... it seems they have given in. And without a strong union leading the march for an improved pay offer, then what's the point in voting no?
And for me it's always been more about the terms than it has about lump sums.
It is your right not to believe the dire financial state the company is but ask yourself why the PEC, the CWU and RM all agree. Given how bitter the dispute has been why do you think they are all conspiring to lie to you?
Also just use your eyes. Mail is drying up even parcels. With costs all rising too it is easy to see why RM are in this mess.
I have given plenty of facts on this forum regarding the financial position of the company but it's up to people if they clearly choose to see otherwise. It's like telling people that father Xmas doesn't exist - some people will still say that he does because they believe what other people say regardless! lol. I did point out months ago that the company would blame the strikes for the financial position and would try and paint a really black picture of the financial position. Lo and behold they have done that and it's not difficult to understand why.
Your confirmation bias is based on the PEC, the CWU and RM. Now I didn't say that they were conspiring against us but it has been a very bitter dispute and the union are desperate for us all to vote yes and move on. Maybe in some ways that could be the best option......do you see how I have opened my mind up there? I certainly think that the company will still plough on with many of the changes regardless and going on any unofficial strikes for me is a definite no.
But I am also using my eyes as well - the company have purposely made duties bigger with these revisions to account for the decline in letter volumes. They have also ramped up the postage on letters and USO failures are still widespread on a daily basis. This isn't due to the financial position but the reality of a privatised public service where shareholders are chasing the money because parcels provides most of the revenue. The only issue with parcel deliveries though is that we are trying to compete with the rest of the industry which is entirely bogus self-employed labour that is barely paid above the min wage. Something tells me that this is where we are heading - with or without a deal.
Hate to tell you Pete, you didn't have to be Nostradamus to make them predictions.
But on the other hand Lou is blaming anything and anyone except RM for their current predicament, again you wouldn't have to be Nostradamus....
They decided long ago to try to make sure you are giving them full value for money so making the duties to big was always on the cards.
What they have forgotten is that by keeping them doable people would maybe take the rough with the smooth and work over most of the time, but make them too big and nobody except the o/t kings will bother.
I can't see anyone with a fixed mortgage about to end will vote no. I think people will take the money and if the job is unbearable they'll just leave. Good luck looking for an unskilled job for more money.
It is your right not to believe the dire financial state the company is but ask yourself why the PEC, the CWU and RM all agree. Given how bitter the dispute has been why do you think they are all conspiring to lie to you?
Also just use your eyes. Mail is drying up even parcels. With costs all rising too it is easy to see why RM are in this mess.
I have given plenty of facts on this forum regarding the financial position of the company but it's up to people if they clearly choose to see otherwise. It's like telling people that father Xmas doesn't exist - some people will still say that he does because they believe what other people say regardless! lol. I did point out months ago that the company would blame the strikes for the financial position and would try and paint a really black picture of the financial position. Lo and behold they have done that and it's not difficult to understand why.
Your confirmation bias is based on the PEC, the CWU and RM. Now I didn't say that they were conspiring against us but it has been a very bitter dispute and the union are desperate for us all to vote yes and move on. Maybe in some ways that could be the best option......do you see how I have opened my mind up there? I certainly think that the company will still plough on with many of the changes regardless and going on any unofficial strikes for me is a definite no.
But I am also using my eyes as well - the company have purposely made duties bigger with these revisions to account for the decline in letter volumes. They have also ramped up the postage on letters and USO failures are still widespread on a daily basis. This isn't due to the financial position but the reality of a privatised public service where shareholders are chasing the money because parcels provides most of the revenue. The only issue with parcel deliveries though is that we are trying to compete with the rest of the industry which is entirely bogus self-employed labour that is barely paid above the min wage. Something tells me that this is where we are heading - with or without a deal.
Hate to tell you Pete, you didn't have to be Nostradamus to make them predictions.
But on the other hand Lou is blaming anything and anyone except RM for their current predicament, again you wouldn't have to be Nostradamus....
They decided long ago to try to make sure you are giving them full value for money so making the duties to big was always on the cards.
What they have forgotten is that by keeping them doable people would maybe take the rough with the smooth and work over most of the time, but make them too big and nobody except the o/t kings will bother.
The o.t kings in our office aint extending anymore dutys way to big now they are happy to come in a hour or so early fair play to them take the easy o.t.
Why do you even care if you finish or not?
Start at your start time, do your contracted hours and bring what's left back; it's not rocket science
You are correct but it is a mental thing I think especially if you're old school and are used to completing without any dramas.
You are left with no choice now to be honest, gone are the days where you were providing a service to the public taking pride in your work knowing that you have done a good job and your mind (and frame!) is clear for the next day.
Enjoyable days they were sadly gone because of pure corporate greed
Quite a few of us are old skool on this forum, and we have seen everything under the sun during our time with Royal Mail.
The key is to be adaptable and flexible, to not only survive but thrive in a good working environment, built on the Pillar of Mutual Trust.
Blimey - you don't 'alf come out with some drivel - sounds like you are reading from a 100 year old text book on industrial relations. What mutual trust is that you are referring to now?
Why do you even care if you finish or not?
Start at your start time, do your contracted hours and bring what's left back; it's not rocket science
You are correct but it is a mental thing I think especially if you're old school and are used to completing without any dramas.
You are left with no choice now to be honest, gone are the days where you were providing a service to the public taking pride in your work knowing that you have done a good job and your mind (and frame!) is clear for the next day.
Enjoyable days they were sadly gone because of pure corporate greed
Quite a few of us are old skool on this forum, and we have seen everything under the sun during our time with Royal Mail.
The key is to be adaptable and flexible, to not only survive but thrive in a good working environment, built on the Pillar of Mutual Trust.
Blimey - you don't 'alf come out with some drivel - sounds like you are reading from a 100 year old text book on industrial relations. What mutual trust is that you are referring to now?
Mutual trust.
It's an aim or objective, something that should be striven for in good working negotiations and relations between two parties.
Granted this has been a very bitter and protracted dispute with faults on both sides. Personally
speaking I think this dispute could and should have been settled long time ago, without resorting to industrial action, but alas there was a lack of goodwill and flexibility in the negotiations, and a complete lack of trust between the parties.
That being said, rejecting the deal now engineered and crafted by our own CWU union, would terminally damage the union and postal worker's rights, terms and conditions, and put all the power into the hands of Royal Mail's Executive.
I have given plenty of facts on this forum regarding the financial position of the company but it's up to people if they clearly choose to see otherwise.
There have been so many of them that they have passed me by. Do me a favour and just lay out a few for us here. It would be good if you could forward them to the union negotiators, so as when the vote comes back a no, they can get back around the table with this new weapon of proven financial opulence, and use it to thrash out a better deal.
I have given plenty of facts on this forum regarding the financial position of the company but it's up to people if they clearly choose to see otherwise.
There have been so many of them that they have passed me by. Do me a favour and just lay out a few for us here. It would be good if you could forward them to the union negotiators, so as when the vote comes back a no, they can get back around the table with this new weapon of proven financial opulence, and use it to thrash out a better deal.
This is what Keith Williams said to in the shareholder meeting after the Union's agreement.
* retained earnings of £3.8 billion
* access to liquidity of £1.7 billion
* Group balance sheets remain strong (despite the impairment of assets)
There is also a lot riding on the changes with a plan that shows a return to profitability in 2023-24 and for both companies in profit in 2024-25
On the face of it, shareholder value is the dumbest idea in the world.
I was a definite no vote. But now I'm just not sure what way to vote. Do I like this deal?... absolutely not! do I honestly believe that this CWU leadership can get us a better deal? Not a chance.... it seems they have given in. And without a strong union leading the march for an improved pay offer, then what's the point in voting no?
And for me it's always been more about the terms than it has about lump sums.
For me it’s about being able to look yourself in the mirror, it’s a poor deal and I voted No , I have no idea what comes next should it be a no vote but I’m willing to find out regardless.
Just a question for you Woody.
I am pretty sure you have stated that you aren't that happy with the deal, but you feel that you must support the unions view that it's the best deal that they can get and the alternative is much worse.
I know that the union has had a peek at the books and were suitably horrified and believe what they looked at as the truth.
Now i am sure you will accept that this is pretty much the whole basis for accepting this deal or certainly the overriding factor.
We know these characters are liberal with the truth, yet they believe them.
To be honest I'm not really interested in Royal Mail's alleged financial position. It's their fault not mine and I don't see why their mismanagement should lead to poorer terms for me.
My position with regards to voting on this deal is based purely on the fact that having gone through every possible scenario after a no vote I believe that rejecting this deal will ultimately lead to a worse position for the members and I cannot condone leading the members on some suicidal Custer's last stand.
Custer wasn't brave or principled, he was vain, self important and stupid and got his men killed.
I was a definite no vote. But now I'm just not sure what way to vote. Do I like this deal?... absolutely not! do I honestly believe that this CWU leadership can get us a better deal? Not a chance.... it seems they have given in. And without a strong union leading the march for an improved pay offer, then what's the point in voting no?
And for me it's always been more about the terms than it has about lump sums.
Vote yes and its the start of losing all those terms,its not about the lump sum for me ,its not time to waiver if you think the deal is bad you have to vote with your heart on this one.
I have given plenty of facts on this forum regarding the financial position of the company but it's up to people if they clearly choose to see otherwise.
There have been so many of them that they have passed me by. Do me a favour and just lay out a few for us here. It would be good if you could forward them to the union negotiators, so as when the vote comes back a no, they can get back around the table with this new weapon of proven financial opulence, and use it to thrash out a better deal.
This is what Keith Williams said to in the shareholder meeting after the Union's agreement.
* retained earnings of £3.8 billion
* access to liquidity of £1.7 billion
* Group balance sheets remain strong (despite the impairment of assets)
There is also a lot riding on the changes with a plan that shows a return to profitability in 2023-24 and for both companies in profit in 2024-25
it did make me chuckle when Dave Ward said they had called in independent accountants to view the books. did he really believe they would show what they didn't want us to see? RMs whizz kids are the best creative accountants in the world. probably came from the ''ponzi school'' of accountancy.
