How we Square the circle

[LouBarlow]

More negativity from doom and gloom Lou ,
Voting no shows them we will not be bullied and pushed around ,

Lou why are you on here 24/7 have you nothing else to do with your life than spread you negativity , do you actually work for royal mail if so how have you got the time , you are on here 24/7 trying to scaremonger people into a yes vote .

No, I have nothing better to do. You should know how long I spend on here, Mr Positive, as you follow me around like a lost puppy. It is quite touching really.

[Acca Dacca]

We discussed it on other thread Lou and it’s now been broached on this thread so what do you make of Martin’s non answer to the questions on enforcing contractual changes without agreement and fire and rehire? He skirted around it quite impressively you’ve got to admit.

“It’s not illegal to ask ( on sick terms being changed )”

“Other industries have annualised hours”

Why does it look like the membership are being fooled , or attempted to be fooled. by the union into believing that these contractual changes can be enforced with or without an agreement?

[Valentina@1]

Answer the question Martin,is it illegal or not?

[freespeech]

Answer the question Martin,is it illegal or not?

From the ACAS website it gives one of the reasons when an employer can change T&C's as "you have a 'collective agreement' with a trade union and the union agrees changes to terms and conditions on behalf of your employees or workers".

The debate is whether legally the agreement needs a yes vote from membership. I know it does within the CWU rules and it's morally right to ballot BUT where does it stand legally.

Given RM are pressing ahead I suspect they think they have an agreement (and there is plenty of rhetoric to support that with the PEC recommending a yes vote too). I can see this going to the courts......

[redlen]

Another thing to consider

If a contractual change is proposed by Royal Mail/CWU and presented in such a way as either open or clandestine and the employee does not object officially in writing to that contractual change

It can instigate those changes after 30 days' notice, as the lack of objection is acceptance.

[Acca Dacca]

Another thing to consider

If a contractual change is proposed by Royal Mail/CWU and presented in such a way as either open or clandestine and the employee does not object officially in writing to that contractual change

It can instigate those changes after 30 days' notice, as the lack of objection is acceptance.

Which is why clued up offices should stick together and all object should that happen

[LouBarlow]

We discussed it on other thread Lou and it’s now been broached on this thread so what do you make of Martin’s non answer to the questions on enforcing contractual changes without agreement and fire and rehire? He skirted around it quite impressively you’ve got to admit.

“It’s not illegal to ask ( on sick terms being changed )”

“Other industries have annualised hours”

Why does it look like the membership are being fooled , or attempted to be fooled. by the union into believing that these contractual changes can be enforced with or without an agreement?

Seeing as he is more qualified than either of us when it comes to such matters, I have to believe what he says. What part was confusing you? Also no idea why you’ve singled me out for this question, seeing as you seem to think it isn’t possible because you found one old, unrelated case study and think it backs up your opinion.

We will soon find out who is right if a vote is not upcoming or the deal is thrown out.

[Acca Dacca]

We discussed it on other thread Lou and it’s now been broached on this thread so what do you make of Martin’s non answer to the questions on enforcing contractual changes without agreement and fire and rehire? He skirted around it quite impressively you’ve got to admit.

“It’s not illegal to ask ( on sick terms being changed )”

“Other industries have annualised hours”

Why does it look like the membership are being fooled , or attempted to be fooled. by the union into believing that these contractual changes can be enforced with or without an agreement?

Seeing as he is more qualified than either of us when it comes to such matters, I have to believe what he says. What part was confusing you? Also no idea why you’ve singled me out for this question, seeing as you seem to think it isn’t possible because you found one old, unrelated case study and think it backs up your opinion.

We will soon find out who is right if a vote is not upcoming or the deal is thrown out.

I don’t know why you are in the defensive as I’m not trying to start an argument and there was no malice

I’m singling you out because it was you I had the discussion with and I said I would ask Martin the questions - I’m simply asking what your views are now Martin has responded ( and how he has responded )

You can’t tell me you believe what he says because he hasn’t said anything

He’s used his words carefully

Of course it’s not illegal to ASK

He never answered the question on how RM can enforce contractual changes without agreement and without fire and rehire and potential unfair dismissal. That was the important question - how can they enforce without agreement from the employee ( if no collective agreement )

Why are you satisfied with what he has said?

[LouBarlow]

I don’t know why you are in the defensive as I’m not trying to start an argument and there was no malice

I’m singling you out because it was you I had the discussion with and I said I would ask Martin the questions - I’m simply asking what your views are now Martin has responded ( and how he has responded )

You can’t tell me you believe what he says because he hasn’t said anything

He’s used his words carefully

Of course it’s not illegal to ASK

Why are you satisfied with what he has said?

I’m not being defensive, just found it odd that you would care what I, in particular, thought about his response, especially when he gave pretty much a 100% identical reply to mine. So yes, I agree with him and it is reassuring to have my uneducated opinion, backed up.

Just because you didn’t like his reply doesn’t mean he is wrong or he ‘didn’t say anything’. He answered your question.

[Acca Dacca]

How can you agree with him?

He didn’t answer the question

[Valentina@1]

How can you agree with him?

He didn’t answer the question

Exactly

[Valentina@1]

All I’m expecting from this meeting today is a poxy joint statement saying that everything sorted regarding these revisions & ballot be out in week or so

[Rommagic]

What time is the meeting today?.

[Momo90210]

Martin said none of us have designated start and finish times and can all be changed with appropriate notice which is correct. What is also very true is if you took the job on due to the hours in place at present (RM actively seeked working parents not too long ago) and then have them changed WITHOUT agreement and no consideration of family friendly ("management will strive to help" simply doesn't cut it) therefore meaning you have no childcare and may be forced out of the job then that is an absolute cut and dried case of constructive dismissal.
And I'd say there is an awful lot of people in this position

[TopperGas]

All I’m expecting from this meeting today is a poxy joint statement saying that everything sorted regarding these revisions & ballot be out in week or so

At least that would be better than a statement saying what they've agreed what to discuss at today's meeting and further meetings will now take place later this week!