How we Square the circle

[yellowbelly]

Space why did they spend months try to reach an agreement if they were simply going to impose all the change including committing to no further mail centre closures for the lifespan of the agreement. When they wanted to close 5 mail centres and the project leads had signed Non disclosure agreements.

The board know that the only way this company survives is if there is an agreement and the change is jointly delivered.

I don't trust them to stick to the agreement. Frankly unless it's legally binding with no wiggle room for RM to wriggle their way out ot it, it's not worth the paper it's printed on.

No need for start finish times to change,

If Skynet does get axed, which I believe it starts to very soon, then the work will arrive in inward MCs later and so be processed later and head out to DOs later, with the added time on the top of that from the lorries to the DOs getting caught in traffic

The whole point of an agreement is it is legally binding. They aren’t going to base these changes on a gentlemen’s agreement. It will all be down on paper, in effect contractually binding in fact.

The trouble is that the CWU legal team sign up to agreements (even if they're legally binding) that have woolly phrases in them that enable RM to drive a cart and horses through T & C's etc and then when we (the union) kick off about something being implemented due to these 'woolly phrases'
two years on, RM say 'Right you've broken that legally binding contract, you can do one' and that gives them the freedom
to tear up everything in that agreement!

[Martin Walsh]

I was asked how the business can impose changes to sick , later starts and seasonal variations.

There are two ways through collective bargaining or imposition.

The attendance standards and ill health are not contracted so they can simply give sufficient notice and they did on 22nd September 2022 when Simon Thompson wrote to the union saying the attendance standards will come in from April 2023 with or without agreement.

On SSP which requires contractual change they can give 90 days notice to employees of that change.

Seasonal variations is not contractual and let’s be honest my original contact was 43 hours and it had changed many times over the years and not every duty works their contracted hours now over a week as longs, shorts , shorter Saturdays and wallingtons all balance their hours over a much longer period than a week.

In terms of later starts nothing in your contact states what time you should be working. When I first started it was 06.00 then to do away with night duties start times were made even earlier but now due to a combination of issues including cost , the commitment to reduce CO2 and the fact that most big companies like JD sports , ASOS are all demanding that their parcel carriers are reflective of their green agenda.

[Dorset Plodder]

DOs will have to send vans to collect that 5% as we done away with wave 3 a good few years ago. There's no way that any MC will send out a 600 for such a small amount of mail. Once wave 2 goes out, the MC gets set up for 2C and Tracked 48. Anything that arrives after wave 2 has gone is failed. Sometimes earlies or lates do some of it but it'd go out too late for DOs.

I can't see any of the RDC -> RDC and RDC -> MC runs keeping their current times. RM is bound to want to get some of the former Skynet work on the later runs

OR Perhaps the Mail Centre could employ another person and provide them with a van to do that job? Or we could get an agreement to leave it until the next day?

The Briefing was about working with RM to try and make the Business work Better, not Harder. For example a small Rural Village might have their Postie, a Parcel Force Driver, the LAT Driver and a Parcel Force Timed Delivery ALL driving down to the same Location .... That doesn't make sense in anybodies view!

We all tend to look at the problem from our own little world, the idea of both RM and the CWU working together is to try and improve things across the board. The mantra of RM "It's our business to run" is obviously bollox because who would run a Business in such a way if it Really was their Business.

I've worked for Privately owned companies before and the Owner, who had put up his own money, not investors, took a pride in doing a excellent job and having a well motivated workforce who he actually cared about, and would visit regularly to get feed back and see how things were going. RM take note

[Valentina@1]

I was asked how the business can impose changes to sick , later starts and seasonal variations.

There are two ways through collective bargaining or imposition.

The attendance standards and ill health are not contracted so they can simply give sufficient notice and they did on 22nd September 2022 when Simon Thompson wrote to the union saying the attendance standards will come in from April 2023 with or without agreement.

On SSP which requires contractual change they can give 90 days notice to employees of that change.

Seasonal variations is not contractual and let’s be honest my original contact was 43 hours and it had changed many times over the years and not every duty works their contracted hours now over a week as longs, shorts , shorter Saturdays and wallingtons all balance their hours over a much longer period than a week.

In terms of later starts nothing in your contact states what time you should be working. When I first started it was 06.00 then to do away with night duties start times were made even earlier but now due to a combination of issues including cost , the commitment to reduce CO2 and the fact that most big companies like JD sports , ASOS are all demanding that their parcel carriers are reflective of their green agenda.

Go away you turncoat…us members lost confidence in you lot,just get ballot papers out you muppet,you’ve blatantly thrown deliveries under bus to save your nice little union numbers….stop patronising us!!

[SpacePhoenix]

Perhaps the Mail Centre could employ another person and provide them with a van to do that job?

Won't happen, for one thing we won't have the room to park the required vans and RM aren't going to get vans just for 1 run a day. At least in DOs some of the vans get used for collections

Or we could get an agreement to leave it until the next day?

Not an option as there will be SDs mixed in with it

[LouBarlow]

I was asked how the business can impose changes to sick , later starts and seasonal variations.

There are two ways through collective bargaining or imposition.

The attendance standards and ill health are not contracted so they can simply give sufficient notice and they did on 22nd September 2022 when Simon Thompson wrote to the union saying the attendance standards will come in from April 2023 with or without agreement.

On SSP which requires contractual change they can give 90 days notice to employees of that change.

Seasonal variations is not contractual and let’s be honest my original contact was 43 hours and it had changed many times over the years and not every duty works their contracted hours now over a week as longs, shorts , shorter Saturdays and wallingtons all balance their hours over a much longer period than a week.

In terms of later starts nothing in your contact states what time you should be working. When I first started it was 06.00 then to do away with night duties start times were made even earlier but now due to a combination of issues including cost , the commitment to reduce CO2 and the fact that most big companies like JD sports , ASOS are all demanding that their parcel carriers are reflective of their green agenda.

Go away you turncoat…us members lost confidence in you lot,just get ballot papers out you muppet,you’ve blatantly thrown deliveries under bus to save your nice little union numbers….stop patronising us!!

We are union members. What is this nonsense?

[Acca Dacca]

I was asked how the business can impose changes to sick , later starts and seasonal variations.

There are two ways through collective bargaining or imposition.



On SSP which requires contractual change they can give 90 days notice to employees of that change.

Seasonal variations is not contractual and let’s be honest my original contact was 43 hours and it had changed many times over the years and not every duty works their contracted hours now over a week as longs, shorts , shorter Saturdays and wallingtons all balance their hours over a much longer period than a week.

Ok so it does require a new contract if they want us to be UNPAID for first few days of second absence and so on.

90 days notice implies that theres no option to disagree or refuse that change - please explain how they could change our contract without agreement and just giving us notice and without risking unfair dismissal claims for those who dont agree with the change?

On seasonal variation, we are being told to work extra hours unpaid this winter and dont get the time back until next summer - this isnt the same as the above examples you have mentioned. How can Royal Mail enforce people to work more hours than they are being paid for without agreement?

Without agreement being the key words.

Im contracted to work 30 hours a week. If RM demand that I work 32 hours from October till January or whatever the period will be - what happens if I say no I am working my 30 hours and will only work 32 if I am paid 32?

To me, you are making it sound far easier for RM to impose these changes than it is

[TopperGas]

I was asked how the business can impose changes to sick , later starts and seasonal variations.

There are two ways through collective bargaining or imposition.

The attendance standards and ill health are not contracted so they can simply give sufficient notice and they did on 22nd September 2022 when Simon Thompson wrote to the union saying the attendance standards will come in from April 2023 with or without agreement.

On SSP which requires contractual change they can give 90 days notice to employees of that change.

Seasonal variations is not contractual and let’s be honest my original contact was 43 hours and it had changed many times over the years and not every duty works their contracted hours now over a week as longs, shorts , shorter Saturdays and wallingtons all balance their hours over a much longer period than a week.

In terms of later starts nothing in your contact states what time you should be working. When I first started it was 06.00 then to do away with night duties start times were made even earlier but now due to a combination of issues including cost , the commitment to reduce CO2 and the fact that most big companies like JD sports , ASOS are all demanding that their parcel carriers are reflective of their green agenda.

Have you ought legal advice on the seasonal hours issue, as I can't see how any employer can ask an employee to work 2 hours longer a week without their agreement? If they could having a 15/25/35 hours contract would be meaningless as an employer could just inform you to work longer each week as they choose to do.

[Martin Walsh]

Trooper seasonal variations or annualised hours is very standard in business where they do not have the same workload throughout the year. There is nothing illegal asking someone who is full time to work 24 minutes more or less during 30 weeks of the year and their pay will still be the same.

There will be an exemptions process which would be required under any fair process.

However how many of our members complain that they are absorbing to much in the summer ? One of the aims of seasonal variations is reduce the need for absorption and we will be using the ten pilot units to show this.

[jahbalon]

The choice is quite simple now, there is no more wriggle room.

Either accept the deal which the CWU have agreed too, and is the best deal that will ever be on the table, or have the deal imposed by Royal Mail.

Time is precious and time is money, the more this impasse drags on the worse it will get for all postal workers and the Company itself.

[redlen]

Space why did they spend months try to reach an agreement if they were simply going to impose all the change including committing to no further mail centre closures for the lifespan of the agreement. When they wanted to close 5 mail centres and the project leads had signed Non disclosure agreements.

The board know that the only way this company survives is if there is an agreement and the change is jointly delivered.

I don't trust them to stick to the agreement. Frankly unless it's legally binding with no wiggle room for RM to wriggle their way out ot it, it's not worth the paper it's printed on.

No need for start finish times to change,

If Skynet does get axed, which I believe it starts to very soon, then the work will arrive in inward MCs later and so be processed later and head out to DOs later, with the added time on the top of that from the lorries to the DOs getting caught in traffic

The whole point of an agreement is it is legally binding. They aren’t going to base these changes on a gentlemen’s agreement. It will all be down on paper, in effect contractually binding in fact.

Then where in the negotiators agreement does it state legally binding??
That being 179 TULRCA 1992?

The courts do not recognise collective bargained agreements otherwise

After the legal undertakings in the Agenda For Growth, Hell would freeze over before Royal Mail agreed to that again. Not to mention the AFG had more holes in it than the Titanic with get out clauses. After the CWU tore up that agreement with a strike ballot Royal Mail went for the throat attacking terms and conditions

[pieoftheday]

Trooper seasonal variations or annualised hours is very standard in business where they do not have the same workload throughout the year. There is nothing illegal asking someone who is full time to work 24 minutes more or less during 30 weeks of the year and their pay will still be the same.

There will be an exemptions process which would be required under any fair process.

However how many of our members complain that they are absorbing to much in the summer ? One of the aims of seasonal variations is reduce the need for absorption and we will be using the ten pilot units to show this.

Last couple of weeks I have to admit ,mail, packets and letters are way down, however we are only just getting back on time, if we were doing 30 mins less we would be bringing 2 loops back

[Acca Dacca]

Trooper seasonal variations or annualised hours is very standard in business where they do not have the same workload throughout the year. There is nothing illegal asking someone who is full time to work 24 minutes more or less during 30 weeks of the year and their pay will still be the same.

There will be an exemptions process which would be required under any fair process.

However how many of our members complain that they are absorbing to much in the summer ? One of the aims of seasonal variations is reduce the need for absorption and we will be using the ten pilot units to show this.

Yeah and the people with those contracts in other businesses will have taken the job knowing that was how the business operated and that will have been stated in the contract they signed.

You are saying there is nothing illegal ASKING - thats true, but what about FORCING?

[pieoftheday]

Trooper seasonal variations or annualised hours is very standard in business where they do not have the same workload throughout the year. There is nothing illegal asking someone who is full time to work 24 minutes more or less during 30 weeks of the year and their pay will still be the same.

There will be an exemptions process which would be required under any fair process.

However how many of our members complain that they are absorbing to much in the summer ? One of the aims of seasonal variations is reduce the need for absorption and we will be using the ten pilot units to show this.

Yeah and the people with those contracts in other businesses will have taken the job knowing that was how the business operated and that will have been stated in the contract they signed.

You are saying there is nothing illegal ASKING - thats true, but what about FORCING?

No such thing as absorption or lapsing anymore, it's now just part of your Job, come on cwu get a grip

[pieoftheday]

Trooper seasonal variations or annualised hours is very standard in business where they do not have the same workload throughout the year. There is nothing illegal asking someone who is full time to work 24 minutes more or less during 30 weeks of the year and their pay will still be the same.

There will be an exemptions process which would be required under any fair process.

However how many of our members complain that they are absorbing to much in the summer ? One of the aims of seasonal variations is reduce the need for absorption and we will be using the ten pilot units to show this.

Yeah and the people with those contracts in other businesses will have taken the job knowing that was how the business operated and that will have been stated in the contract they signed.

You are saying there is nothing illegal ASKING - thats true, but what about FORCING?

No such thing as absorption or lapsing anymore, it's now just part of your Job, come on cwu get a grip