Royal Mail going bust is NEVER going to happen

[ted_e_bear]

Any chance that some of you could refrain from quoting whole massive posts when replying.

[LouBarlow]

Any chance that some of you could refrain from quoting whole massive posts when replying.

That is the way the forum software works unfortunately. If someone could post a guide to help us just quote the one post we are replying to, that would be very useful.

[postslippete]

If they are that desperate why have the CWU agreed such a poor offer, the only reasons to accept seems to be if you're really desperate for the pay rise & £500 lump sum or simply can't face any further IA. I doubt anybody is thinking they'll accept it as it's a good offer.

Let me ask a different question. If Royal Mail wanted to impose all these changes without union involvement, why didn't they just do this last year? They need an agreement with the union. As for why the CWU have agreed a poor offer it's because RM have worn them down after 18 days of strike action and they have now surrendered on their initial intentions.

[postslippete]

Any chance that some of you could refrain from quoting whole massive posts when replying.

That is the way the forum software works unfortunately. If someone could post a guide to help us just quote the one post we are replying to, that would be very useful.

Just delete and edit all the other posts when you reply

[timbo1234]

RM is capable of doing anything if it is a NO vote and the CWU will be in no position to stop it.

RM desperately need an agreement with the union. If the company just simply impose changes, for example, later shifts and staff have genuine reasons why they can't work those hours, then they are at the mercy of unfair dismissal and employment tribunals. And this applies even if the changes are agreed with the CWU as staff can submit grievances if they can't work the hours. But it is always best practice for the employer to agree it with the union first.

If they can't then like Martin says they would need to have a business plan and show how they need these changes otherwise they would go into administration. Very unlikely that this would get this far because for this to happen the company would need to show that it is not financially sustainable. This would open a can of worms because IDS has proven to be profitable in the past 5 years with the exception of last year. It still owns GLS which is profitable and has a strong balance sheet with £1.7 billion in available liquidity. The RM board would be in the spotlight again over gross financial mismanagement as to how they went from making record profits to record losses. It's the government that makes the decision of whether RM will be put into administration and there's plenty of other things that it can do especially as regards the USO.

I understand RM publish its annual accounts on 17 May and they are likely to be dire. How the markets react is to be seen. The RM board will be in the spotlight whatever. I don't think there will be any cross subsidy or bail out until RM outline and confirm their business plan to cut costs and improve efficiency. It cannot do that unless they have the agreement of the workforce which I agree is vital. But when it comes to employment rights this government will not hesitate to introduce emergency legislation to curtail workers rights. It did it to the nurses. It even did it to stop protesters at the coronation. A few individuals might get a slap on the wrist publicly but there will be no charges of gross mismanagement. Most of them are probably Tory donors anyway. I believe the USO can will be kicked down the road by suspending while a review is carried over a couple of years.

In my opinion this particular battle is lost. The CWU did their best but maybe employed the wrong tactics. But the war carries on and we will need a strong union in the coming weeks. If that means changing individuals in the union then that can be done at the next elections. The one thing that is certain is if RM divide the workforce it will conquer and then we all lose.

[postslippete]

I understand RM publish its annual accounts on 17 May and they are likely to be dire. How the markets react is to be seen. The RM board will be in the spotlight whatever. I don't think there will be any cross subsidy or bail out until RM outline and confirm their business plan to cut costs and improve efficiency. It cannot do that unless they have the agreement of the workforce which I agree is vital. But when it comes to employment rights this government will not hesitate to introduce emergency legislation to curtail workers rights. It did it to the nurses. It even did it to stop protesters at the coronation. A few individuals might get a slap on the wrist publicly but there will be no charges of gross mismanagement. Most of them are probably Tory donors anyway. I believe the USO can will be kicked down the road by suspending while a review is carried over a couple of years.

In my opinion this particular battle is lost. The CWU did their best but maybe employed the wrong tactics. But the war carries on and we will need a strong union in the coming weeks. If that means changing individuals in the union then that can be done at the next elections. The one thing that is certain is if RM divide the workforce it will conquer and then we all lose.

Our ballot papers are being despatched the day before RM publish its annual accounts - is this merely a coincidence or a deliberate move by the CWU to try and swing the ballot in their favour? The Union have always been between the devil (Royal Mail) and the deep blue sea (their members) and after a year of getting nowhere with the devil they have opted to try and pacify us with the worse deal I have ever seen.

Our battle will only be lost if this shocking deal gets pushed through because half the posties will have either left the Union or even RM because the company will have forced through bigger outdoor spans with reduced sick pay and later finishes and all for a below pay inflation deal. Everything that Royal Mail wanted and the "war" will inevitable be lost in the future due to accepting the alternative business model of a cheaper workforce on reduced terms and conditions!

What happened with the nurses is different as their dispute directly involves the government and they can force through emergency legislation (just like they did during the pandemic) to ensure that NHS staff still provide critical care for patients and prevent a backlog in appointments and procedures. Even though we were classed as the 4th emergency service by the union during the pandemic, one look at offices up and down the country with frames of mail and parcels going undelivered would suggest that it's not that important anymore? When would the government get involved in our business? Well, if RM cannot reach an agreement and decide to to push the self destruct button then the government would be more willing to do what you've just mentioned by either suspending the USO it or watering it down in some way. Don't forget that the company would need to show that it is financial unsustainable in its current form for the government to agree for them going into admin in the first place. It is a last resort.

The CWU did employ the wrong tactics and have now imho surrendered. By the time the lifetime of the agreement expires in just two years the next "battle" will likely result in another crushing victory for Royal Mail because they know that the Union will offer even less resistance than what they have shown previously.

[k979aaa]

I understand RM publish its annual accounts on 17 May and they are likely to be dire. How the markets react is to be seen. The RM board will be in the spotlight whatever. I don't think there will be any cross subsidy or bail out until RM outline and confirm their business plan to cut costs and improve efficiency. It cannot do that unless they have the agreement of the workforce which I agree is vital. But when it comes to employment rights this government will not hesitate to introduce emergency legislation to curtail workers rights. It did it to the nurses. It even did it to stop protesters at the coronation. A few individuals might get a slap on the wrist publicly but there will be no charges of gross mismanagement. Most of them are probably Tory donors anyway. I believe the USO can will be kicked down the road by suspending while a review is carried over a couple of years.

In my opinion this particular battle is lost. The CWU did their best but maybe employed the wrong tactics. But the war carries on and we will need a strong union in the coming weeks. If that means changing individuals in the union then that can be done at the next elections. The one thing that is certain is if RM divide the workforce it will conquer and then we all lose.

Our ballot papers are being despatched the day before RM publish its annual accounts - is this merely a coincidence or a deliberate move by the CWU to try and swing the ballot in their favour? The Union have always been between the devil (Royal Mail) and the deep blue sea (their members) and after a year of getting nowhere with the devil they have opted to try and pacify us with the worse deal I have ever seen.

Our battle will only be lost if this shocking deal gets pushed through because half the posties will have either left the Union or even RM because the company will have forced through bigger outdoor spans with reduced sick pay and later finishes and all for a below pay inflation deal. Everything that Royal Mail wanted and the "war" will inevitable be lost in the future due to accepting the alternative business model of a cheaper workforce on reduced terms and conditions!

What happened with the nurses is different as their dispute directly involves the government and they can force through emergency legislation (just like they did during the pandemic) to ensure that NHS staff still provide critical care for patients and prevent a backlog in appointments and procedures. Even though we were classed as the 4th emergency service by the union during the pandemic, one look at offices up and down the country with frames of mail and parcels going undelivered would suggest that it's not that important anymore? When would the government get involved in our business? Well, if RM cannot reach an agreement and decide to to push the self destruct button then the government would be more willing to do what you've just mentioned by either suspending the USO it or watering it down in some way. Don't forget that the company would need to show that it is financial unsustainable in its current form for the government to agree for them going into admin in the first place. It is a last resort.

The CWU did employ the wrong tactics and have now imho surrendered. By the time the lifetime of the agreement expires in just two years the next "battle" will likely result in another crushing victory for Royal Mail because they know that the Union will offer even less resistance than what they have shown previously.
[
Well a constructive post on here like time and effort doing this on here so top man.
As to RM going bust No corrupt YES we all know the deal and it is ship out or retire soon

[scotchy1962]

What inside knowledge do you have, that neither RM or the CWU are privy to, that convinces you that a better deal will somehow miraculously emerge if the vote comes back no? Nobody seems to have an answer for this. I wonder why?
[/quote]

I have no inside knowledge, in fact some people would argue i know very little.
But this is what i do know. I am voting on what is put in front me, its a simple yes/no answer, i dont really care nor should i have to care about the outcome of a no vote, there doesnt have to be a better deal miraculously appearing and i dont really give a flying F$%K either. I will not vote for it just because of threats of what might happen. Life is full of risks and some are worth taking.

[Burghboy]

What inside knowledge do you have, that neither RM or the CWU are privy to, that convinces you that a better deal will somehow miraculously emerge if the vote comes back no? Nobody seems to have an answer for this. I wonder why?

I have no inside knowledge, in fact some people would argue i know very little.
But this is what i do know. I am voting on what is put in front me, its a simple yes/no answer, i dont really care nor should i have to care about the outcome of a no vote, there doesnt have to be a better deal miraculously appearing and i dont really give a flying F$%K either. I will not vote for it just because of threats of what might happen. Life is full of risks and some are worth taking.
[/quote]


The deal is the deal apparently, you can’t pick and mix parts of it seemingly, it’s been costed out and every part has a value, that’s all they can afford.

The ink wasn’t even dry and they’d found an additional bribe which will prob cost millions…

They are compulsive liars and the CWU negotiators look like they are complicit…

[LouBarlow]

I have no inside knowledge, in fact some people would argue i know very little.
But this is what i do know. I am voting on what is put in front me, its a simple yes/no answer, i dont really care nor should i have to care about the outcome of a no vote, there doesnt have to be a better deal miraculously appearing and i dont really give a flying F$%K either. I will not vote for it just because of threats of what might happen. Life is full of risks and some are worth taking.

You don’t care about the outcome of a no vote, but you intend to vote no anyway? Blimey. You probably vote tory too right, despite being a working class postie? Give me strength.

[scotchy1962]

I have no inside knowledge, in fact some people would argue i know very little.
But this is what i do know. I am voting on what is put in front me, its a simple yes/no answer, i dont really care nor should i have to care about the outcome of a no vote, there doesnt have to be a better deal miraculously appearing and i dont really give a flying F$%K either. I will not vote for it just because of threats of what might happen. Life is full of risks and some are worth taking.

You don’t care about the outcome of a no vote, but you intend to vote no anyway? Blimey. You probably vote tory too right, despite being a working class postie? Give me strength.

Feck Lou you are a self righteous fecker. Can you read at all. What i said is i am voting on what is in front of me!
Its immaterial what happens after, contrary to what you are pushing.
If it said we have to fire every other postie and half the workforce but its all we can offer, would you go for it? My guess is as long as you still had a job you would and feck the rest of us.
We all arent lily livered and some of us have some self respect and pride in ourselves, and a bit of moral fibre to stand up for ourselves.
I live in Northern Ireland and nobody votes tory over here and quite frankly if anyone around here is a tory supporter it might be you.
I dont try to influence i just say to vote freely without prejudice and dont be scared of the outcome either way.

[LouBarlow]

Feck Lou you are a self righteous fecker. Can you read at all. What i said is i am voting on what is in front of me!
Its immaterial what happens after, contrary to what you are pushing.
If it said we have to fire every other postie and half the workforce but its all we can offer, would you go for it? My guess is as long as you still had a job you would and feck the rest of us.
We all arent lily livered and some of us have some self respect and pride in ourselves, and a bit of moral fibre to stand up for ourselves.
I live in Northern Ireland and nobody votes tory over here and quite frankly if anyone around here is a tory supporter it might be you.
I dont try to influence i just say to vote freely without prejudice and dont be scared of the outcome either way.

Self respect and pride doesn’t pay the bills. I admire militancy as much as the next person, but not unrealistic militancy likely to cause real damage to thousands of workers, which is why I take interest in what my vote will likely lead to for both myself and my colleagues.

And I take back the political poke. That was a low blow and I apologise. And I also love NI.

[scotchy1962]

Feck Lou you are a self righteous fecker. Can you read at all. What i said is i am voting on what is in front of me!
Its immaterial what happens after, contrary to what you are pushing.
If it said we have to fire every other postie and half the workforce but its all we can offer, would you go for it? My guess is as long as you still had a job you would and feck the rest of us.
We all arent lily livered and some of us have some self respect and pride in ourselves, and a bit of moral fibre to stand up for ourselves.
I live in Northern Ireland and nobody votes tory over here and quite frankly if anyone around here is a tory supporter it might be you.
I dont try to influence i just say to vote freely without prejudice and dont be scared of the outcome either way.

Self respect and pride doesn’t pay the bills. I admire militancy as much as the next person, but not unrealistic militancy likely to cause real damage to thousands of workers, which is why I take interest in what my vote will likely lead to for both myself and my colleagues.

And I take back the political poke. That was a low blow and I apologise. And I also love NI.

NO, self respect and pride dont pay your bills it is something we all have within us and stops people being walked all over. You might not have any but i do. If you really cared for your fellow workers you would understand both sides and allow people to vote the way they choose and not just try and advocate a yes vote. Democracy is a wonderful thing and i will live with whatever the outcome is.

[LouBarlow]

NO, self respect and pride dont pay your bills it is something we all have within us and stops people being walked all over. You might not have any but i do. If you really cared for your fellow workers you would understand both sides and allow people to vote the way they choose and not just try and advocate a yes vote. Democracy is a wonderful thing and i will live with whatever the outcome is.

I’m a pragmatist. If I am being told by union negotiators, who I have trusted to work in my best interests in every previous dispute, that this deal is better for me, then I trust them enough to vote for it.

[timbo1234]

I totally agree with you LB. There are posts on here suggesting this deal is a collusion between RM and CWU to save their union jobs. SERIOUSLY?? The CWU have represented postal workers for years. Yes it has made tactical mistakes. Perhaps the leadership should be more militant but to think it has sold out 115,000 people to save their own skins is ludicrous. RM have behaved appallingly during this dispute. It obviously does not care about its workforce and has used every underhand tactic in the book. We will need the CWU more than ever now. DON'T UNDERMINE IT.