It is what every union does

[Martin Walsh]

I have been a contributor on here from the very early days ,had names like Dingo , The Truth and now under my real name. I am as entitled to post as any other poster to explain the deal and context.

I am always happy to debate things. However if you simply slag off or abuse a post or poster your not winning any debate , your simply shouting the loudest and you have lost the argument.

We balloted on pay and change two separate ballots but Royal Mail made it clear that pay would have to be linked to strings.

The reballot was pay and changed combined.

I never once thought that we would reach an agreement by stopping everything Royal Mail wanted to change.

It was never going to happen. Royal Mail needs to change or it is finished.

The decision for the union is how could we reduce , or change what Royal Mail wanted to introduce.

In addition how much pay could we get in a company which will announce on 17th May record losses and with an estimated further loss next year to stump up on pay.

13 years after privatisation we were always going to have this kind of dispute. Every other privatised company has faced it from British Airways , British Gas and British Telecom.

The business plan was to slash costs , try and introduce owner drivers and an alternative workforce to do the growth work ie parcels and then to make the existing workforce work harder and faster by introducing performance standards which if you did not achieve you were managed out the door. They also wanted to introduce compulsory redundancies to reduce the workforce.

This agreement is night and day away from that plan. Some on here gloss over what Royal Mail’s original proposals actually were and try to say they were never going to happen. Very easy thing to say now they are off the table but it took strike action the union refusal to agreement to take compulsory redundancies , compulsory Sundays , no finishing times and the first 7 days of sick at SSP rate off the table.

All union’s negotiators get to a place where they have run out of road, which means there are no more concessions to be had and no more pay to be got.

In our union rule book and in most of unions is written you then consult the membership and they along with Branch’s will decide if the agreement is good enough.

The RMT did this and got heavily criticised by its members for not putting a recommendation to the proposed agreement because the signal workers wanted the agreement.

The RCN put the deal to it members who rejected the deal even thou they recommended it to their members. The Government are refusing to negotiate further as other unions have accepted the same deal.

The CWU have done the same. However the serious financial position of the company must be a major factor in anyone’s final decision. The accounts don’t lie and when they announce it on 17 May we all might shout to record profits they made and the payment of the bonuses and dividends to shareholders. However that does not change the fact they are now band in trouble.

But we cannot change Royal Mail’s original plan and argue let’s stay the same. That is pie in the sky stuff.

Unfortunately things like coming off planes cannot be stopped whether you go on strike forever.

Start times cannot stay the same and delivery the mail which needs to go out on that day.

Instead the choice is do you want Royal Mail’s plan of up to 3 hours later start or do you want the agreement commitment which will mean 63% of units will finish before 15:30 and 93% before 16:00 and we have 9 months to try and reduce the later start impact via the joint working groups reviewing the inward mail centre.

Again on seasonal variations the choice is not that there will be no change but whether you want Royal Mail’s annualised hours approach with no finishing times and payroll linked to Siso.

Or you want seasonal variations where you know a year ahead what your working hours are and your not committed to work past your time.

Remember Royal Mail have employed a number of senior directors from Land Rover jaguar and they have been pushing annualised hours and flexi bank approach in a massive way.

They argue traffic is between 10% and 20% less in the summer but most units have got the same number of duties and hours across the year.

So this is another area where there was never going to be no change.

On sick pay , this is a difficult one as again if it was a pic and mix we would not agree this section but it was not Royal Mail made it clear that any agreement had to include all parts of their business plan.

Again around 25% normally come under the terms of the attendance procedure. It is not an area where if this was the only issue they would necessarily take strike action over.

Royal Mail say they sick pay is costing them circa 250 million on sick pay and absence costs.

They had threatened to impose it , instead we have got a number of changes which includes SSP being reversed if sick comes down to 5.5%.

So there is no sheep , there are two views , one who believes that this is the best deal which can be negotiated and the rejection will mean things get worse in the workplace and those who want to vote no which is Theron right to do so but they have yet to explain what they want to do then ?

[LouBarlow]

Ignore people giving you abuse on here. They are the vocal minority. Most of us appreciate your contributions and keeping us in the loop.

[SpacePhoenix]

Frankly I don't trust RM to not bring in all that crap by EA a few months down the line. I suspect that there's a good few members on here that also don't trust RM to not bring all the crap in by EA a few months down the line

[RTP]

Martin when are we going to see the start and finish times for each individual delivery office?

[Martin Walsh]

Thanks Lou.

Space no one trusts Royal Mail that is why there is a need for the trade union to hold them to account.

The fact is this agreement is the best vehicle to stop executive action. No agreement will mean Royal Mail are legal obligated to introduce an unagreed business plan and that will be by executive action.

RTP, we are working through this we have up to 90 and now working up to 60. We would also want to show you what Royal Mail’s up to 3 hours proposal did for your unit.

[Martin Walsh]

Thanks Lou.

Space no one trusts Royal Mail that is why there is a need for the trade union to hold them to account.

The fact is this agreement is the best vehicle to stop executive action. No agreement will mean Royal Mail are legal obligated to introduce an unagreed business plan and that will be by executive action.

RTP, we are working through this we have up to 90 and now working up to 60. We would also want to show you what Royal Mail’s up to 3 hours proposal did for your unit.

[carlosevenos]

I have been a contributor on here from the very early days ,had names like Dingo , The Truth and now under my real name. I am as entitled to post as any other poster to explain the deal and context.

I am always happy to debate things. However if you simply slag off or abuse a post or poster your not winning any debate , your simply shouting the loudest and you have lost the argument.

We balloted on pay and change two separate ballots but Royal Mail made it clear that pay would have to be linked to strings.

The reballot was pay and changed combined.

I never once thought that we would reach an agreement by stopping everything Royal Mail wanted to change.

It was never going to happen. Royal Mail needs to change or it is finished.

The decision for the union is how could we reduce , or change what Royal Mail wanted to introduce.

In addition how much pay could we get in a company which will announce on 17th May record losses and with an estimated further loss next year to stump up on pay.

13 years after privatisation we were always going to have this kind of dispute. Every other privatised company has faced it from British Airways , British Gas and British Telecom.

The business plan was to slash costs , try and introduce owner drivers and an alternative workforce to do the growth work ie parcels and then to make the existing workforce work harder and faster by introducing performance standards which if you did not achieve you were managed out the door. They also wanted to introduce compulsory redundancies to reduce the workforce.

This agreement is night and day away from that plan. Some on here gloss over what Royal Mail’s original proposals actually were and try to say they were never going to happen. Very easy thing to say now they are off the table but it took strike action the union refusal to agreement to take compulsory redundancies , compulsory Sundays , no finishing times and the first 7 days of sick at SSP rate off the table.

All union’s negotiators get to a place where they have run out of road, which means there are no more concessions to be had and no more pay to be got.

In our union rule book and in most of unions is written you then consult the membership and they along with Branch’s will decide if the agreement is good enough.

The RMT did this and got heavily criticised by its members for not putting a recommendation to the proposed agreement because the signal workers wanted the agreement.

The RCN put the deal to it members who rejected the deal even thou they recommended it to their members. The Government are refusing to negotiate further as other unions have accepted the same deal.

The CWU have done the same. However the serious financial position of the company must be a major factor in anyone’s final decision. The accounts don’t lie and when they announce it on 17 May we all might shout to record profits they made and the payment of the bonuses and dividends to shareholders. However that does not change the fact they are now band in trouble.

But we cannot change Royal Mail’s original plan and argue let’s stay the same. That is pie in the sky stuff.

Unfortunately things like coming off planes cannot be stopped whether you go on strike forever.

Start times cannot stay the same and delivery the mail which needs to go out on that day.

Instead the choice is do you want Royal Mail’s plan of up to 3 hours later start or do you want the agreement commitment which will mean 63% of units will finish before 15:30 and 93% before 16:00 and we have 9 months to try and reduce the later start impact via the joint working groups reviewing the inward mail centre.

Again on seasonal variations the choice is not that there will be no change but whether you want Royal Mail’s annualised hours approach with no finishing times and payroll linked to Siso.

Or you want seasonal variations where you know a year ahead what your working hours are and your not committed to work past your time.

Remember Royal Mail have employed a number of senior directors from Land Rover jaguar and they have been pushing annualised hours and flexi bank approach in a massive way.

They argue traffic is between 10% and 20% less in the summer but most units have got the same number of duties and hours across the year.

So this is another area where there was never going to be no change.

On sick pay , this is a difficult one as again if it was a pic and mix we would not agree this section but it was not Royal Mail made it clear that any agreement had to include all parts of their business plan.

Again around 25% normally come under the terms of the attendance procedure. It is not an area where if this was the only issue they would necessarily take strike action over.

Royal Mail say they sick pay is costing them circa 250 million on sick pay and absence costs.

They had threatened to impose it , instead we have got a number of changes which includes SSP being reversed if sick comes down to 5.5%.

So there is no sheep , there are two views , one who believes that this is the best deal which can be negotiated and the rejection will mean things get worse in the workplace and those who want to vote no which is Theron right to do so but they have yet to explain what they want to do then ?

I understand that a yes vote may be the best option, and understand all your points. You don't deserve the abuse. But the reason everyone is so mad is because it was the union itself who promised the better deal.

Also getting rid of planes was never going anywhere, so why didn't the union say that? They mislead members. If they were honest, people wouldn't have a problem.

Surely sick pay is contractual and can't be enforced. I find it hard to believe. I know it costs them a fortune, but couldn't the union at least make it slightly better?

The union are misleading people by saying you get SSP for first 2 days. In reality, you don't get any pay for the first few days, as SSP doesn't pay out after a few days. But the union are making people think you get some sort of payment in the first couple days, as they don't know how SSP works.

[heraldmoth]

Ballot was for a no strings pay rise initially. Huge suspicion around the time taken to allow us to vote means trust in the union has gone, can you explain the delay?

[guardianangel]

Everyone understands change,pay and ways of working but when your terms and conditions are attacked that the workers worked hard to achieve over decades of struggle that is a definite red line that no union should compromise on,over the years unions as a whole have let it sneak in where employers start to dictate and we all know its not for the benefit of the workers only to fill their already large bank accounts,we have all seen it and we all know whats going on. Personally i think since the miners strike which in itself was a unique dispute the unions seem to have shrunk back in their shell frightened to take on the establishment for fear of losing,that fear is what these lot thrive on ,Royal Mail like many other companies smell it and start all the threats,bullying and abuse and the union shrinks back in that shell.In the last 3 disputes they have chipped away and its now come down to the final blow for most members,its time the union listened to its members they are ready to fight and risk all for a decent job and working life,they must lead us forward and achieve this when the NO vote comes back.In my personnel opinion this agreement is dead in the water we have gained absolutely nothing and lost so much,maybe its time the top of the union started to look at this dispute differently ,we need something to vote for not against if that makes sense.

[heraldmoth]

Also are they simply relying on a drop off in work to take us from 39 hours to 35?

[claystones]

Martin thanks for your help and personal views but if we accept this deal we have already given away our terms and conditions in a year or 2 they will come for the rest of our terms we will have nothing left we all understand the consequences of a no vote with regards to 10 000 compulsory redundancies i think that 20 000 or 30 000 people want to leave the business so would probably have been voluntary also with the removal of the fittings we will be out up to an hour earlier we could end up with 6hour walks and finally with agreeing to work 39 hours in the winter where is the cwu 35 hour week they promised us we are going from 35 to 39 hours a no from me sorry mate

[LouBarlow]

I understand that a yes vote may be the best option, and understand all your points. You don't deserve the abuse. But the reason everyone is so mad is because it was the union itself who promised the better deal.

I think there are two reasons why - firstly, the union may well have not been aware how dire the finances were early on in the dispute and have had to taper back on issues. Secondly, they needed support for strike action - had they not been so demanding at the beginning we would likely have not even received the deal we have presented to us now. Without the support we showed early on, we might currently be even worse off.

[chrisj]

There is nothing like 'no finish time'! That will be challenged with or without the Union...

Delivery of mail and many variations that are involved make our job b ib Delivery (not processing) very much different the like of Jaguar or Land rover: within quoter weeks or seasons, you can still get spikes. Also the walks or round are still so very different that some are still working well over even in the summer.

* 10 or 20% drop in volume (which I doubt the top end figure) does not mean 10% or even 5% in actual work being done.

So the so-called seasonal variations will most unlikely work for most offices regardless of whether you know in advance or not. In fact, I will prefer the SISO method (with finish time, + 30 minutes flexibility), of course).

I shall like to see the managers micro-manage an SISO variations because most of them just do the same thing they have been doing for decades - winging things and just relying on the hardest workers to carry the office.

What Martin has said just now is more or less what some of us have been saying for a very long time but the Union has encouraged people to think they can win every aspect of the dispute. Starting off with a no-string pay deal was just so obvious that it will not happen but 4 or 5 months was wasted on that!

The Union have been too bombastic and amateurish and also arrogant to both RM and their members... It is no wonder that some of the ultra-unionists are now livid; you reap what you sow!

The revisions in delivery is now a major issue compared to all the other aspects of the dispute; and the Revision is one thing the Union sanctioned despite telling members not to get involved at the start. There is just so much to do now in delivery - yes, it is more about Delivery! So much to do that sickness absence is unlikely to come down in delivery and people are leaving and others thinking of leaving.

I accept that RM has to make changes but the picking on delivery staff and the bullying and inconsiderate behaviour of the managers (that have been paid handsomely recently and incentivised to get the revision through) is now making me (a company man according to some here) think about my future.

* For now, we should accept the deal and move on and the Union should start trying to ameliorate the effects of many of the changes, it is the least they could do! The CWU are still in the room but have to be more vigilant and pro-active.

[chrisj]

Also are they simply relying on a drop off in work to take us from 39 hours to 35?

It won't happen but the managers will still try to bully things through.

[LouBarlow]

Martin thanks for your help and personal views but if we accept this deal we have already given away our terms and conditions in a year or 2 they will come for the rest of our terms we will have nothing left we all understand the consequences of a no vote with regards to 10 000 compulsory redundancies i think that 20 000 or 30 000 people want to leave the business so would probably have been voluntary also with the removal of the fittings we will be out up to an hour earlier we could end up with 6hour walks and finally with agreeing to work 39 hours in the winter where is the cwu 35 hour week they promised us we are going from 35 to 39 hours a no from me sorry mate

How do you think voting no will impact on your T&Cs? You will certainly be better off with an agreement in place and union support going forward. I don’t understand how people can think otherwise.