Could some of this agreement be illegal?

[thefox]

The way I see it is that legally the deal has been done. The CWU and RM work on the basis of collective agreement and this agreement has been ratified by the Exec too so RM have an agreement. I can't see anyhting in the words that states this is not agreed until a members vote.. The rank and file vote is nothing more than internal Politics and has no relevance legally.

I believe you are incorrect as any agreement must be subject to it's members voting yes, otherwise it's pointless having a ballot as they could just tell us they've reached an agreement and supply us with the details of what they've agreed.

Have a look at the deal.....it''s signed by RM and the CWU. There is no reference to a ballot anywhere. That's just internal politics. If you have collective bargaining then the union agree "on behalf of" the membership. To be clear I'm not saying it's the right thing but I am suggesting that "legally" there is a deal done.

So you are saying even if its a no vote it will still be happening, sorry but if it is what your saying then i think thats bollocks .

[enskied]

The way I see it is that legally the deal has been done. The CWU and RM work on the basis of collective agreement and this agreement has been ratified by the Exec too so RM have an agreement. I can't see anyhting in the words that states this is not agreed until a members vote.. The rank and file vote is nothing more than internal Politics and has no relevance legally.

I believe you are incorrect as any agreement must be subject to it's members voting yes, otherwise it's pointless having a ballot as they could just tell us they've reached an agreement and supply us with the details of what they've agreed.

Have a look at the deal.....it''s signed by RM and the CWU. There is no reference to a ballot anywhere. That's just internal politics. If you have collective bargaining then the union agree "on behalf of" the membership. To be clear I'm not saying it's the right thing but I am suggesting that "legally" there is a deal done.

So you are saying even if its a no vote it will still be happening, sorry but if it is what your saying then i think thats bollocks .

There is not a deal done unless we ratify it.
We say NO and there's no deal.
Ward can't sign it without our consent.

[kazardaimenu]

Don’t think they can bring in the seasonal variation stuff without our say so or without paying us for working extra this year. Could be wrong on that, sick policy too might need an agreement.

[freespeech]

The way I see it is that legally the deal has been done. The CWU and RM work on the basis of collective agreement and this agreement has been ratified by the Exec too so RM have an agreement. I can't see anyhting in the words that states this is not agreed until a members vote.. The rank and file vote is nothing more than internal Politics and has no relevance legally.

I believe you are incorrect as any agreement must be subject to it's members voting yes, otherwise it's pointless having a ballot as they could just tell us they've reached an agreement and supply us with the details of what they've agreed.

Have a look at the deal.....it''s signed by RM and the CWU. There is no reference to a ballot anywhere. That's just internal politics. If you have collective bargaining then the union agree "on behalf of" the membership. To be clear I'm not saying it's the right thing but I am suggesting that "legally" there is a deal done.

So why did the company put a RNS out to the markets saying it was being put to the members.They would just say a deal was done.

Because it is being put to the members. Why would they upset the membership for no reason?

[guardianangel]

Don’t think they can bring in the seasonal variation stuff without our say so or without paying us for working extra this year. Could be wrong on that, sick policy too might need an agreement.

I heard this aswell the seasonal hours cant be brung in without agreement or change of contract ,i dont think they can make you work extra hours and not pay you within a reasonable period, not 9 months anyway.

[2chorizon]

The way I see it is that legally the deal has been done. The CWU and RM work on the basis of collective agreement and this agreement has been ratified by the Exec too so RM have an agreement. I can't see anyhting in the words that states this is not agreed until a members vote.. The rank and file vote is nothing more than internal Politics and has no relevance legally.

I believe you are incorrect as any agreement must be subject to it's members voting yes, otherwise it's pointless having a ballot as they could just tell us they've reached an agreement and supply us with the details of what they've agreed.

Have a look at the deal.....it''s signed by RM and the CWU. There is no reference to a ballot anywhere. That's just internal politics. If you have collective bargaining then the union agree "on behalf of" the membership. To be clear I'm not saying it's the right thing but I am suggesting that "legally" there is a deal done.

So you are saying even if its a no vote it will still be happening, sorry but if it is what your saying then i think thats bollocks .

Check the wording the CWU are using,

The ballot is a “Consultative” ballot.

Nowhere does it say a yes or no binding ballot.

[Martin Walsh]

Nothing in the agreement is not legal.

This is a collective agreement and the CWU is the recognised union for CWU grades.

In any case Royal Mail can give I’d they choose 3 months notice of any a changes they want to make.

Seasonal variations are not illegal, if It was almost every car plant would be breaking the law.

It is a consultative ballot because it is in our rule book.

The facts are the union reached the end of the road in negotiations, nothing else could be achieved so we have put that to the members to decide with a recommendation to accept but the members will decide.

That is what unions do. The RMT put a pay deal to their members without a recommendation and got heavily criticised by members because signal workers wanted the agreement and others did not.

The RCN recommended an agreement which was rejected by the members and now they have to reballot.

It was unions do.

[pieoftheday]

Nothing in the agreement is not legal.

This is a collective agreement and the CWU is the recognised union for CWU grades.

In any case Royal Mail can give I’d they choose 3 months notice of any a changes they want to make.

Seasonal variations are not illegal, if It was almost every car plant would be breaking the law.

It is a consultative ballot because it is in our rule book.

The facts are the union reached the end of the road in negotiations, nothing else could be achieved so we have put that to the members to decide with a recommendation to accept but the members will decide.

That is what unions do. The RMT put a pay deal to their members without a recommendation and got heavily criticised by members because signal workers wanted the agreement and others did not.

The RCN recommended an agreement which was rejected by the members and now they have to reballot.

It was unions do.

But what's the point of seasonal variations? Currently many deliveries are nowhere near doable some only just doable, so assuming a reduction in mail in summer, some jobs will be doable in a 37hr week and some still wont be doable .a 35 hr week and many jobs still wont be doable it'll be interesting to see how easy the summer months will be

[2chorizon]

UK unions use “consultative” strike ballots to suppress class struggle

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/0 ... s-s21.html

The “consultative” or indicative ballot is becoming the trade union bureaucracy’s weapon of choice in avoiding strikes and maintaining their role as partners with the employers.

Legally, the bureaucracy can hold such ballots at any time under their own rules. Most importantly, the unions are required by law to hold a further legal ballot if they wish to proceed with any industrial action. The consultative ballot never implies action being taken, even if a massive vote in favour is returned.

The “Industrial Action Handbook” of the largest public sector union, Unison, states that in relation to “lawful industrial action… when all your preparations have been completed to ensure we have an accurate ballot register, it will normally take a minimum of 6 weeks from the date upon which we give notice of the ballot to the employer to the first possible day of action.”

It then stresses, “Remember also that no actual industrial action can be authorised or take place on the basis of a consultative ballot.”

Consultative ballots have been used by the unions for several decades, but as resistance and anger among workers mounts during the pandemic—after a decade of relentless and unprecedented attacks on living standards—their use by the bureaucracy is becoming ever more frequent and the norm.

[Acca Dacca]

Nothing in the agreement is not legal.

This is a collective agreement and the CWU is the recognised union for CWU grades.

In any case Royal Mail can give I’d they choose 3 months notice of any a changes they want to make.

Seasonal variations are not illegal, if It was almost every car plant would be breaking the law.

It is a consultative ballot because it is in our rule book.

The facts are the union reached the end of the road in negotiations, nothing else could be achieved so we have put that to the members to decide with a recommendation to accept but the members will decide.

That is what unions do. The RMT put a pay deal to their members without a recommendation and got heavily criticised by members because signal workers wanted the agreement and others did not.

The RCN recommended an agreement which was rejected by the members and now they have to reballot.

It was unions do.

We are contracted to so many hours a week

Royal Mail cannot force us to work more than those hours a week without an agreement

Doesn’t matter if they give notice or not - it can’t be enforced

The people who work jobs with annualised hours already or seasonal variation as you call it will have signed their contract of employment based on those terms. We never.

If everybody refused to work more than our current contracted hours this winter as it stands then Royal Mail would need to accept it or go through the process of trying to dismiss thousands of workers who don’t want to sign the new contract that has annualised hours included and all the repurcussions that come with that.

So as I see it, they are completely relying on us agreeing to annualised hours/seasonal variation

[Martin Walsh]

Contracts of employment don’t work like that Acca for example when I joined it was compulsory overtime at Christmas written into your contract of employment.

Their is a term implied terms and also collective bargaining may change your contract.

Laws like the working time directive will change your contract.

Working 15 weeks 2 more hours per week and 15 weeks 2 hours less is not illegal or every wallington or long and shorts or shorter Saturdays would be.

[Acca Dacca]

I know how collective agreements work to make changes to contracts - I’m talking about if we didn’t agree.

If there was no agreement and Royal Mail told us all we were to work two hours a week more for no extra pay but get the time back next summer and we refused what would happen?

How would they enforce it?

[theotherone]

So if they can push through seasonal variations and everything including the kitchen sink why even bother of going through the CWU and pay 6% for the privvy?

[k979aaa]

Well the CWU telling and selling us the deal if it was that good a deal we would be voting or it as such as is more pie in the sky and turd in side the pie deal!

[rubberbond]

Mandatory Sundays and commit to deliver were definetly just boogie men proposals as they could never have been imposed on us

The union are being a bit sneaky with the truth when they say that it was our action that stopped those coming in

They know those couldn’t have been forced on us from the get go

Exactly, they can’t cover Monday to Saturday, never mind Sunday