Change-I have seen some post that Royal Mail got everything they wanted , not true , the above was in their original proposal and some of this was in their best and final.

[Martin Walsh]

I have seen some post that Royal Mail got everything they wanted , not true , the above was in their original proposal and some of this was in their best and final.


we have changed the companies position on all the following

1. Up to 3 hour later starts. 17:00 last letter delivery.
2. Processing and network duties moving up to 3 hours later.
3. Compulsory Sundays paid at Monday to Saturday rates.
4. Owner drivers in Royal Mail pick up the growth in parcels.
5. Annualised hours linked to scan in scan out deciding your pay.
6. Flexi bank so you don’t have a finish time you have to complete. Additionally if you finished earlier determine by your PDA/ Siso then they could determine when that hours would be worked.
7. 5 Mail Centre closures.
8. Their best and final agreement only gave a no compulsory redundancies agreement until March 2023.
9. The future of Parcelforce would have been unlimited owner drivers.
10. All legacy allowances to be removed including RRIS which for over 30 thousand members would be a pay cut ranging from £6 to £35 per week.
11. Pay was dependent on the change being introduced. The lump sum was also dependent on change being introduced.
12 individual performance standards linked to PDA OA and 100 BSi indoors. Replacement of the NCI procedure to allow individuals to be sacked for poor performance.
13. No more disagreements or negotiations at local level on revisions etc.
14. New entrants not part of the collective bargaining and a stand alone workforce.


Yes the agreement is not perfect but anyone who believes Royal Mail are going to suddenly say there will be no change will have to think again.

[FilthyBloke]

I have seen some post that Royal Mail got everything they wanted , not true , the above was in their original proposal and some of this was in their best and final.


we have changed the companies position on all the following

1. Up to 3 hour later starts. 17:00 last letter delivery.
2. Processing and network duties moving up to 3 hours later.
3. Compulsory Sundays paid at Monday to Saturday rates.
4. Owner drivers in Royal Mail pick up the growth in parcels.
5. Annualised hours linked to scan in scan out deciding your pay.
6. Flexi bank so you don’t have a finish time you have to complete. Additionally if you finished earlier determine by your PDA/ Siso then they could determine when that hours would be worked.
7. 5 Mail Centre closures.
8. Their best and final agreement only gave a no compulsory redundancies agreement until March 2023.
9. The future of Parcelforce would have been unlimited owner drivers.
10. All legacy allowances to be removed including RRIS which for over 30 thousand members would be a pay cut ranging from £6 to £35 per week.
11. Pay was dependent on the change being introduced. The lump sum was also dependent on change being introduced.
12 individual performance standards linked to PDA OA and 100 BSi indoors. Replacement of the NCI procedure to allow individuals to be sacked for poor performance.
13. No more disagreements or negotiations at local level on revisions etc.
14. New entrants not part of the collective bargaining and a stand alone workforce.


Yes the agreement is not perfect but anyone who believes Royal Mail are going to suddenly say there will be no change will have to think again.

Some understand that…
Personally I think one of the main reasons people are objecting is how the CWU rallied everyone together with statements like “10% and NO strings!” And “win the ballot win the Dispute!”

This is far from ‘NO strings’ and a lot don’t see this deal as a ‘win’.

A lot of people said that RM won’t budge much even way back in august so it’s not a deal that is that surprising to that group. But the others feel they have been sold down the river.

I’m hoping the Q&A with Ward and Co will convince others this is the best deal. Otherwise who knows what RM will do.

[nuisance]

We don't mind change. Innovation, improvements in working practices, more availability of alternative shift patterns, etc. i.e. positive change. We're not having negative change for us as punishment for their bad management. That is RM royally taking the p out of us. You can't force as large and an established workforce as this into anything so stop helping them try.

[SpacePhoenix]

9. The future of Parcelforce would have been unlimited owner drivers.

Think there's a mention somewhere in the deal about merging PF back into RM

[Mickeybrowneyes]

I have seen some post that Royal Mail got everything they wanted , not true , the above was in their original proposal and some of this was in their best and final.


we have changed the companies position on all the following

1. Up to 3 hour later starts. 17:00 last letter delivery.
2. Processing and network duties moving up to 3 hours later.
3. Compulsory Sundays paid at Monday to Saturday rates.
4. Owner drivers in Royal Mail pick up the growth in parcels.
5. Annualised hours linked to scan in scan out deciding your pay.
6. Flexi bank so you don’t have a finish time you have to complete. Additionally if you finished earlier determine by your PDA/ Siso then they could determine when that hours would be worked.
7. 5 Mail Centre closures.
8. Their best and final agreement only gave a no compulsory redundancies agreement until March 2023.
9. The future of Parcelforce would have been unlimited owner drivers.
10. All legacy allowances to be removed including RRIS which for over 30 thousand members would be a pay cut ranging from £6 to £35 per week.
11. Pay was dependent on the change being introduced. The lump sum was also dependent on change being introduced.
12 individual performance standards linked to PDA OA and 100 BSi indoors. Replacement of the NCI procedure to allow individuals to be sacked for poor performance.
13. No more disagreements or negotiations at local level on revisions etc.
14. New entrants not part of the collective bargaining and a stand alone workforce.


Yes the agreement is not perfect but anyone who believes Royal Mail are going to suddenly say there will be no change will have to think again.

Some understand that…
Personally I think one of the main reasons people are objecting is how the CWU rallied everyone together with statements like “10% and NO strings!” And “win the ballot win the Dispute!”

This is far from ‘NO strings’ and a lot don’t see this deal as a ‘win’.

A lot of people said that RM won’t budge much even way back in august so it’s not a deal that is that surprising to that group. But the others feel they have been sold down the river.

I’m hoping the Q&A with Ward and Co will convince others this is the best deal. Otherwise who knows what RM will do.

Nature of negotiations.
Don't go into it with weak rheteric, would have just emboldened the company.
If they would have started with 'we want 6% and a few changes', we would have got 2% and many changes.

[manfromuncle]

Didn’t mention sick pay there…
Can understand the need to cut down on certain people constantly sick so you’re agreeing to make the attendance stricter but why give in on sick pay. That will hurt genuine cases no doubt but its also opened the door for future expansion.
Slippery slope.

[FilthyBloke]

I have seen some post that Royal Mail got everything they wanted , not true , the above was in their original proposal and some of this was in their best and final.


we have changed the companies position on all the following

1. Up to 3 hour later starts. 17:00 last letter delivery.
2. Processing and network duties moving up to 3 hours later.
3. Compulsory Sundays paid at Monday to Saturday rates.
4. Owner drivers in Royal Mail pick up the growth in parcels.
5. Annualised hours linked to scan in scan out deciding your pay.
6. Flexi bank so you don’t have a finish time you have to complete. Additionally if you finished earlier determine by your PDA/ Siso then they could determine when that hours would be worked.
7. 5 Mail Centre closures.
8. Their best and final agreement only gave a no compulsory redundancies agreement until March 2023.
9. The future of Parcelforce would have been unlimited owner drivers.
10. All legacy allowances to be removed including RRIS which for over 30 thousand members would be a pay cut ranging from £6 to £35 per week.
11. Pay was dependent on the change being introduced. The lump sum was also dependent on change being introduced.
12 individual performance standards linked to PDA OA and 100 BSi indoors. Replacement of the NCI procedure to allow individuals to be sacked for poor performance.
13. No more disagreements or negotiations at local level on revisions etc.
14. New entrants not part of the collective bargaining and a stand alone workforce.


Yes the agreement is not perfect but anyone who believes Royal Mail are going to suddenly say there will be no change will have to think again.

Some understand that…
Personally I think one of the main reasons people are objecting is how the CWU rallied everyone together with statements like “10% and NO strings!” And “win the ballot win the Dispute!”

This is far from ‘NO strings’ and a lot don’t see this deal as a ‘win’.

A lot of people said that RM won’t budge much even way back in august so it’s not a deal that is that surprising to that group. But the others feel they have been sold down the river.

I’m hoping the Q&A with Ward and Co will convince others this is the best deal. Otherwise who knows what RM will do.

Nature of negotiations.
Don't go into it with weak rheteric, would have just emboldened the company.
If they would have started with 'we want 6% and a few changes', we would have got 2% and many changes.

Sure, but make it realistic. To go from 10% no strings attached to 8% over 2 years and decimated terms and conditions doesn’t sit well with the people who voted to support that union objective.
Then win the ballot win the dispute. Members voted overwhelmingly and victory didn’t come.

This is why people are turning on their own union. They feel they were misled.

[Acca Dacca]

It was a negotiating tactic from RM as you already know

This agreement will get them much of what they really wanted from this round and they will be back for more later

[FilthyBloke]

It was a negotiating tactic from RM as you already know

This agreement will get them much of what they really wanted from this round and they will be back for more later

But what will voting NO achieve? It’s not going to stop RMs agenda. It could even speed it up.

[Mickeybrowneyes]

I have seen some post that Royal Mail got everything they wanted , not true , the above was in their original proposal and some of this was in their best and final.


we have changed the companies position on all the following

1. Up to 3 hour later starts. 17:00 last letter delivery.
2. Processing and network duties moving up to 3 hours later.
3. Compulsory Sundays paid at Monday to Saturday rates.
4. Owner drivers in Royal Mail pick up the growth in parcels.
5. Annualised hours linked to scan in scan out deciding your pay.
6. Flexi bank so you don’t have a finish time you have to complete. Additionally if you finished earlier determine by your PDA/ Siso then they could determine when that hours would be worked.
7. 5 Mail Centre closures.
8. Their best and final agreement only gave a no compulsory redundancies agreement until March 2023.
9. The future of Parcelforce would have been unlimited owner drivers.
10. All legacy allowances to be removed including RRIS which for over 30 thousand members would be a pay cut ranging from £6 to £35 per week.
11. Pay was dependent on the change being introduced. The lump sum was also dependent on change being introduced.
12 individual performance standards linked to PDA OA and 100 BSi indoors. Replacement of the NCI procedure to allow individuals to be sacked for poor performance.
13. No more disagreements or negotiations at local level on revisions etc.
14. New entrants not part of the collective bargaining and a stand alone workforce.


Yes the agreement is not perfect but anyone who believes Royal Mail are going to suddenly say there will be no change will have to think again.

Some understand that…
Personally I think one of the main reasons people are objecting is how the CWU rallied everyone together with statements like “10% and NO strings!” And “win the ballot win the Dispute!”

This is far from ‘NO strings’ and a lot don’t see this deal as a ‘win’.

A lot of people said that RM won’t budge much even way back in august so it’s not a deal that is that surprising to that group. But the others feel they have been sold down the river.

I’m hoping the Q&A with Ward and Co will convince others this is the best deal. Otherwise who knows what RM will do.

Nature of negotiations.
Don't go into it with weak rheteric, would have just emboldened the company.
If they would have started with 'we want 6% and a few changes', we would have got 2% and many changes.

Sure, but make it realistic. To go from 10% no strings attached to 8% over 2 years and decimated terms and conditions doesn’t sit well with the people who voted to support that union objective.
Then win the ballot win the dispute. Members voted overwhelmingly and victory didn’t come.

This is why people are turning on their own union. They feel they were misled.

I know what you are saying but the financial perils of the company changed expectations on pay and forced their hand on sick pay to bridge the gap of lost finances.
I'm not sure Royal Mail would call this a victory to be fair.
They wanted to uberise many parts of the company and smash the union and permanently sack decent reps.
They have had to pull back from that.
I'm sure that was never in their end goal. Well I can pretty much guarantee it wasn't.
If we need some changes in operations to make the company profitable then we have to accept that, otherwise we won't have a job sometime in the not too distant future.

[stevejm]

There is a complete lack of trust with R.M. Back in January the CWU said we won't start negotiations until all unagreed revision activity ceases. R.M said "Ok find. We'll pause it." > then carried on doing it.
Then the infamous lies in parliament.

There are too many breaches in T&C which were before seen as untouchable. Namely sick pay, IHR, PDA actuals. These breaches can be seen as the slippery slope - erosion by stealth.

Then, my particular concern > In an office of 70 there are 2 off with knee ops and another with a shoulder op and 2 more on light duties with joint issues. There is an equation here between 1. time outside 2. mail volume 3. distance walked.
If time outside stays the same or increase, and mail volume stays the same or decreases - then inevitably distance walked MUST increase. (or we're walking much slower or sitting somewhere). Joint issues are going to go through the roof and yet IHR and sick pay are being attacked. Very cynical of R.M and no self respecting union would allow it.

[FilthyBloke]

I have seen some post that Royal Mail got everything they wanted , not true , the above was in their original proposal and some of this was in their best and final.


we have changed the companies position on all the following

1. Up to 3 hour later starts. 17:00 last letter delivery.
2. Processing and network duties moving up to 3 hours later.
3. Compulsory Sundays paid at Monday to Saturday rates.
4. Owner drivers in Royal Mail pick up the growth in parcels.
5. Annualised hours linked to scan in scan out deciding your pay.
6. Flexi bank so you don’t have a finish time you have to complete. Additionally if you finished earlier determine by your PDA/ Siso then they could determine when that hours would be worked.
7. 5 Mail Centre closures.
8. Their best and final agreement only gave a no compulsory redundancies agreement until March 2023.
9. The future of Parcelforce would have been unlimited owner drivers.
10. All legacy allowances to be removed including RRIS which for over 30 thousand members would be a pay cut ranging from £6 to £35 per week.
11. Pay was dependent on the change being introduced. The lump sum was also dependent on change being introduced.
12 individual performance standards linked to PDA OA and 100 BSi indoors. Replacement of the NCI procedure to allow individuals to be sacked for poor performance.
13. No more disagreements or negotiations at local level on revisions etc.
14. New entrants not part of the collective bargaining and a stand alone workforce.


Yes the agreement is not perfect but anyone who believes Royal Mail are going to suddenly say there will be no change will have to think again.

Some understand that…
Personally I think one of the main reasons people are objecting is how the CWU rallied everyone together with statements like “10% and NO strings!” And “win the ballot win the Dispute!”

This is far from ‘NO strings’ and a lot don’t see this deal as a ‘win’.

A lot of people said that RM won’t budge much even way back in august so it’s not a deal that is that surprising to that group. But the others feel they have been sold down the river.

I’m hoping the Q&A with Ward and Co will convince others this is the best deal. Otherwise who knows what RM will do.

Nature of negotiations.
Don't go into it with weak rheteric, would have just emboldened the company.
If they would have started with 'we want 6% and a few changes', we would have got 2% and many changes.

Sure, but make it realistic. To go from 10% no strings attached to 8% over 2 years and decimated terms and conditions doesn’t sit well with the people who voted to support that union objective.
Then win the ballot win the dispute. Members voted overwhelmingly and victory didn’t come.

This is why people are turning on their own union. They feel they were misled.

I know what you are saying but the financial perils of the company changed expectations on pay and forced their hand on sick pay to bridge the gap of lost finances.
I'm not sure Royal Mail would call this a victory to be fair.
They wanted to uberise many parts of the company and smash the union and permanently sack decent reps.
They have had to pull back from that.
I'm sure that was never in their end goal. Well I can pretty much guarantee it wasn't.
If we need some changes in operations to make the company profitable then we have to accept that, otherwise we won't have a job sometime in the not too distant future.

I agree with that. There was a point though where independent negotiators admitted Royal Mail had no money and the CWU still didn’t seem to react to it?
Anyway, where to go from here? Do you think a NO could work or could it make things worse?

[smok3y666]

Bullet point 13 is bang on, no negotiations on revisions at local level, that's because EA for sorted that issue out.

[Mickeybrowneyes]

There is a complete lack of trust with R.M. Back in January the CWU said we won't start negotiations until all unagreed revision activity ceases. R.M said "Ok find. We'll pause it." > then carried on doing it.
Then the infamous lies in parliament.

There are too many breaches in T&C which were before seen as untouchable. Namely sick pay, IHR, PDA actuals. These breaches can be seen as the slippery slope - erosion by stealth.

Then, my particular concern > In an office of 70 there are 2 off with knee ops and another with a shoulder op and 2 more on light duties with joint issues. There is an equation here between 1. time outside 2. mail volume 3. distance walked.
If time outside stays the same or increase, and mail volume stays the same or decreases - then inevitably distance walked MUST increase. (or we're walking much slower or sitting somewhere). Joint issues are going to go through the roof and yet IHR and sick pay are being attacked. Very cynical of R.M and no self respecting union would allow it.

Of course they are untrustworthy, that is plain to see.
The job of the union is get a deal for the members so we can move on.
If we were striking until Royal Mail all of a sudden become trustworthy we would never go back to work.
At least with an agreement in place and guidelines reps can hold the company to account when they do decide to go rogue on certain issues.
You are right about delivery lengths, they are too long in some places.
I would suggest working at a steady pace, follow protocols like weighing bags and don't run around to get unachievable workloads completed
The USO is their problem, not ours.
Not convinced this cutting of indoor hours will work anyway.
Already not enough indoor hours in offices I know of.
Rely on pre-starts every day.

[Mickeybrowneyes]

I have seen some post that Royal Mail got everything they wanted , not true , the above was in their original proposal and some of this was in their best and final.


we have changed the companies position on all the following

1. Up to 3 hour later starts. 17:00 last letter delivery.
2. Processing and network duties moving up to 3 hours later.
3. Compulsory Sundays paid at Monday to Saturday rates.
4. Owner drivers in Royal Mail pick up the growth in parcels.
5. Annualised hours linked to scan in scan out deciding your pay.
6. Flexi bank so you don’t have a finish time you have to complete. Additionally if you finished earlier determine by your PDA/ Siso then they could determine when that hours would be worked.
7. 5 Mail Centre closures.
8. Their best and final agreement only gave a no compulsory redundancies agreement until March 2023.
9. The future of Parcelforce would have been unlimited owner drivers.
10. All legacy allowances to be removed including RRIS which for over 30 thousand members would be a pay cut ranging from £6 to £35 per week.
11. Pay was dependent on the change being introduced. The lump sum was also dependent on change being introduced.
12 individual performance standards linked to PDA OA and 100 BSi indoors. Replacement of the NCI procedure to allow individuals to be sacked for poor performance.
13. No more disagreements or negotiations at local level on revisions etc.
14. New entrants not part of the collective bargaining and a stand alone workforce.


Yes the agreement is not perfect but anyone who believes Royal Mail are going to suddenly say there will be no change will have to think again.

Some understand that…
Personally I think one of the main reasons people are objecting is how the CWU rallied everyone together with statements like “10% and NO strings!” And “win the ballot win the Dispute!”

This is far from ‘NO strings’ and a lot don’t see this deal as a ‘win’.

A lot of people said that RM won’t budge much even way back in august so it’s not a deal that is that surprising to that group. But the others feel they have been sold down the river.

I’m hoping the Q&A with Ward and Co will convince others this is the best deal. Otherwise who knows what RM will do.

Nature of negotiations.
Don't go into it with weak rheteric, would have just emboldened the company.
If they would have started with 'we want 6% and a few changes', we would have got 2% and many changes.

Sure, but make it realistic. To go from 10% no strings attached to 8% over 2 years and decimated terms and conditions doesn’t sit well with the people who voted to support that union objective.
Then win the ballot win the dispute. Members voted overwhelmingly and victory didn’t come.

This is why people are turning on their own union. They feel they were misled.

I know what you are saying but the financial perils of the company changed expectations on pay and forced their hand on sick pay to bridge the gap of lost finances.
I'm not sure Royal Mail would call this a victory to be fair.
They wanted to uberise many parts of the company and smash the union and permanently sack decent reps.
They have had to pull back from that.
I'm sure that was never in their end goal. Well I can pretty much guarantee it wasn't.
If we need some changes in operations to make the company profitable then we have to accept that, otherwise we won't have a job sometime in the not too distant future.

I agree with that. There was a point though where independent negotiators admitted Royal Mail had no money and the CWU still didn’t seem to react to it?
Anyway, where to go from here? Do you think a NO could work or could it make things worse?

Maybe mistakes were make along the way but not intentionally and probably wouldn't have changed the outcome.
The company are going to push through with changes come what may it seems.
Rather have them doing it with the union in the room.
Hard to know for sure but they could make extreme changes through executive action at any time of their choice.
At the minute we have year to assess our situation and decide whether the change in hours/season variations work for us.