PAIN IN THE HOLIDAY ENTITLEMENT

[POSTMAN]

AFAIK all leave arrangements are agreed locally with the Union so again a good reason to join as if you don't agree you will need to table a motion at an AGM, EGM or branch meeting and get enough support to change it. Ain't democracy good.

again you know im no uniom man and heres another prime example..what the fooks it got to do with the union when anybody picks holiday

The unions main job is to represent the majority decisions made by its members (either locally or nationally) therefore if the Union is not involved it won't be long before you get told when to take your holiday rather than at least have a semblance of choice. Its an imperfect system best at present it is the fairest anyone has come up with to date.

well i think weve come full circle instead of discriminating against union members its now against non union members.i dont wont the union telling me when to take my holiday but not being a union member i can do nothing about it but thats another thread for another time

Altho i haven't read the whole thread,being in or out of the union makes no difference to how you holidays are worked out.

[kingsmoor]

quick recap for you postie,i asked if everone else uses the stupid system called seniority..answers some think it was banned some still use it and some do things i cant even rememeber ,but the conclusion is if you wanna change it you have to table a motion at the agm...well im not and neither are several of my colleuge who think this stinks .in our opinion the union can argue over how much leave its MEMBERS should have but to dictate the system as to who gets to pick first has sweet fa to do with them or me

just a recap but you get the idea

[simply_the_best]

quick recap for you postie,i asked if everone else uses the stupid system called seniority..answers some think it was banned some still use it and some do things i cant even rememeber ,but the conclusion is if you wanna change it you have to table a motion at the agm...well im not and neither are several of my colleuge who think this stinks .in our opinion the union can argue over how much leave its MEMBERS should have but to dictate the system as to who gets to pick first has sweet fa to do with them or me

just a recap but you get the idea

Our office used the seniority system up until last year, myself and a couple of other posties questioned this system and found out that it should have been scrapped in the year 2000 as part of some agreement.

we have now split the workforce into groups of 6(36 staff) and rotate the blocks every year giving everyone a chance to get what they want every 2 years.

[curly1975]

quick recap for you postie,i asked if everone else uses the stupid system called seniority..answers some think it was banned some still use it and some do things i cant even rememeber ,but the conclusion is if you wanna change it you have to table a motion at the agm...well im not and neither are several of my colleuge who think this stinks .in our opinion the union can argue over how much leave its MEMBERS should have but to dictate the system as to who gets to pick first has sweet fa to do with them or me

just a recap but you get the idea

Our office used the seniority system up until last year, myself and a couple of other posties questioned this system and found out that it should have been scrapped in the year 2000 as part of some agreement.

we have now split the workforce into groups of 6(36 staff) and rotate the blocks every year giving everyone a chance to get what they want every 2 years.

[Carnoustie]

the diff with seniority and the group 10 arrangement is that you go up the list by ten every year and the top ten go to the bottom, so you move around and are not stuck at the bottom,sorry if i never explained that right
seniority as i understand it, when you get to the top you will always be at the top ye?


new starters go to the bottom of the list as we are usually in the middle of the pick or it's been done etc, when ever they join, they will be moved up the list with there 10 they will not be permanently at the bottom


this gives everyone the chance of a good pick over time and i think it is a fair arrangement
so it's not the same as seniority, please don't shout, just have a honest exchange of views

have said before, that seniority is not to be used in the hol pick it is in some agreement i have seen, so how come it's still happening?

I think seniority is still used in some of the bigger offices because with the majority of 200+ employees in my office wanting at least two weeks summer holiday in a six-week period when their kids are off school, it's obvious they cannot all be accomodated without the quality of service to our customers being jeopardised. So some way has to be found to decide who gets their first choice and who, unfortunately, misses out.

No system is totally fair or without drawbacks. Some people have to be disappointed and not get their first choice. The issue is what is the least-worst method of allocation? If the union had no involvement, and it was left to managers to decide which people gets their first choice, you'd have to suck-up to your line manager on a daily basis and hope you never have a personality clash with him/her, or you'd have no chance of a getting holiday at a good time of year. Just imagine if you were being bullied or harrassed by said manager, and you'd taken out a B&H case against them. Four weeks in November for you !

People who start at the bottom (under seniority) do not stay bottom forever, nor do those at the top stay at the top forever. Every year, people leave the business. They retire, get another job, or transfer to another office. Ocasionally someone will even be dismissed. Whenever this happens, everyone moves up one place in the list, and - as smokerjim puts it - getting higher seniority (and thus a better choice of holidays) is a kind-of loyalty bonus that cannot be stripped from you by any manager. That reason alone makes it, in my opinion, the least-worst method of allocation.

[laudrup11]

Seniority for allocating annual leave was effectively abolished a number of years ago under the 'Way Forward' agreement.
We use the 'groups of 10' system that Macfan has outlined earlier in this thread and there hasnt been any problems so far. Obviously the people who were getting 1st pick year on year were not too amused at the time but the new system has been accepted.
Reading this thread it's obvious some offices are still using straight seniority as a way of picking -thats up to yuo but if someone challenges it you could be in a spot of bother!

[DGP1]

I prefer to take my holidays in the winter period anyway, I'd give up my summer leave to take off weeks in Jan/Feb whenever it's cold and miserable.

[smokerjim]

I prefer to take my holidays in the winter period anyway, I'd give up my summer leave to take off weeks in Jan/Feb whenever it's cold and miserable.

Too right, I do the same - having said that, I've got one week in August booked......well, would you like to demand the Hell's Angels should arrange the Bulldog Bash for January?

[Fluke]

quick recap for you postie,i asked if everone else uses the stupid system called seniority..answers some think it was banned some still use it and some do things i cant even rememeber ,but the conclusion is if you wanna change it you have to table a motion at the agm...well im not and neither are several of my colleuge who think this stinks .in our opinion the union can argue over how much leave its MEMBERS should have but to dictate the system as to who gets to pick first has sweet fa to do with them or me

just a recap but you get the idea

I'm not entirely sure if I follow your reasoning, but, are you saying that non-members should not have their terms and conditions dictated to them by the majority who happen to be CWU members? Because if that's true will the non-members also be handing back pay rises that have been fought for and agreed by CWU members?

I cant understand why you would believe that by not being a member it gives you one set of rights, and another set when it comes to reaping benefits fought for by CWU members which include sick pay, maternity leave, national pay bargaining, and legislation that protects you in the workplace, just to name a few.

Are you saying that as an individual you want the right to pick and choose elements of the terms and conditions that have been fought for? If I have mistaken your meaning then I apologise in advance.

[Carnoustie]

Seniority for allocating annual leave was effectively abolished a number of years ago under the 'Way Forward' agreement.
We use the 'groups of 10' system that Macfan has outlined earlier in this thread and there hasnt been any problems so far. Obviously the people who were getting 1st pick year on year were not too amused at the time but the new system has been accepted.
Reading this thread it's obvious some offices are still using straight seniority as a way of picking -thats up to yuo but if someone challenges it you could be in a spot of bother!

People did challenge it at our office. The union's legal advice was that seniority does not breach the Age Discrimination legislation, as it is based on length-of-service, not age. As far as I can recall, lengthy discussions were held between the management here and the local CWU reps, who were willing to concede seniority if any alternative workable system that management might come up with were put in front of them. Royal Mail couldn't come up with a system of allocation that did not require a huge amount of admin hours to be put in, in order to make it run smoothly. So they reverted to the default method, seniority.

[laudrup11]

Seniority for allocating annual leave was effectively abolished a number of years ago under the 'Way Forward' agreement.
We use the 'groups of 10' system that Macfan has outlined earlier in this thread and there hasnt been any problems so far. Obviously the people who were getting 1st pick year on year were not too amused at the time but the new system has been accepted.
Reading this thread it's obvious some offices are still using straight seniority as a way of picking -thats up to yuo but if someone challenges it you could be in a spot of bother!

People did challenge it at our office. The union's legal advice was that seniority does not breach the Age Discrimination legislation, as it is based on length-of-service, not age. As far as I can recall, lengthy discussions were held between the management here and the local CWU reps, who were willing to concede seniority if any alternative workable system that management might come up with were put in front of them. Royal Mail couldn't come up with a system of allocation that did not require a huge amount of admin hours to be put in, in order to make it run smoothly. So they reverted to the default method, seniority.

Cant argue with that mate -but up in the G postcode it was pretty widely accepted that the Way Forward wiped out seniority for annual leave.
It would surprise me that management cant come up with working alternatives though -the Way Forward gives about three! Including the 'rotating groups' that we use now.
I preferred seniority though -cos i'm ,eh, quite senior!!

[BELIAL]

Well I,m not that senior, but even a myopic brain dead imbecile should be able to see that getting rid of it would soon turn into an arse lickers charter.

[apple]

ye i get the seniority bit, what i meant to say was basically it will take ages to move up the list, as you have said only when people leave etc one place at a time will you move up the list, with 200+ employees will be a while then

the group system when it came in, the people with seniority were pissed, think so as well, changing the goalposts etc
but the majority were not, now the seniority guys are happy enough with it as we all see it as a fair system

Managers cannot mess with it though, everyone knows where they are and what group they are in

As for the comments about the union? as a member, well nothing is perfect and i don't agree with all they have done, but you do have to concede they have fought for your terms and conditions one of those being holidays, before someone says "ye look at the mess were in" like i said haven't agreed with all they have done

If your happy to use seniority as the way to pick hols then that's great, what ever works for you, myself i prefer this system, you get a greater choice in a shorter period of time as it rotates quicker than a seniority list

[kingsmoor]

quick recap for you postie,i asked if everone else uses the stupid system called seniority..answers some think it was banned some still use it and some do things i cant even rememeber ,but the conclusion is if you wanna change it you have to table a motion at the agm...well im not and neither are several of my colleuge who think this stinks .in our opinion the union can argue over how much leave its MEMBERS should have but to dictate the system as to who gets to pick first has sweet fa to do with them or me

just a recap but you get the idea

I'm not entirely sure if I follow your reasoning, but, are you saying that non-members should not have their terms and conditions dictated to them by the majority who happen to be CWU members? Because if that's true will the non-members also be handing back pay rises that have been fought for and agreed by CWU members?

I cant understand why you would believe that by not being a member it gives you one set of rights, and another set when it comes to reaping benefits fought for by CWU members which include sick pay, maternity leave, national pay bargaining, and legislation that protects you in the workplace, just to name a few.

Are you saying that as an individual you want the right to pick and choose elements of the terms and conditions that have been fought for? If I have mistaken your meaning then I apologise in advance.

i accept your apology

[kingsmoor]

quick recap for you postie,i asked if everone else uses the stupid system called seniority..answers some think it was banned some still use it and some do things i cant even rememeber ,but the conclusion is if you wanna change it you have to table a motion at the agm...well im not and neither are several of my colleuge who think this stinks .in our opinion the union can argue over how much leave its MEMBERS should have but to dictate the system as to who gets to pick first has sweet fa to do with them or me

just a recap but you get the idea

I'm not entirely sure if I follow your reasoning, but, are you saying that non-members should not have their terms and conditions dictated to them by the majority who happen to be CWU members? Because if that's true will the non-members also be handing back pay rises that have been fought for and agreed by CWU members?

I cant understand why you would believe that by not being a member it gives you one set of rights, and another set when it comes to reaping benefits fought for by CWU members which include sick pay, maternity leave, national pay bargaining, and legislation that protects you in the workplace, just to name a few.

Are you saying that as an individual you want the right to pick and choose elements of the terms and conditions that have been fought for? If I have mistaken your meaning then I apologise in advance.

I am afraid its always been the same with strike breakers its ME ME ME and what (i) can get over and above anyone else this is why the UK is turning to crap, the CWU call it a race to the bottom.

you country as you put it is going to shite because you joined a union for the more more more attitude,f**k the customer ,the tax payer i want more money less work..sounds like closet conservatives to me dont get me started.
yet again morons with very few brain cells cant even follow the thread.,i could pick apart evry sentance of the previous two muppets but i cant be arsed lets just take afew .when we all join they say you have x amount of holiday,they dont say but youll only get it when everyone else doesnt want it...thats wrong right there.the union is dictating to royal mail when and who goes first(in my do atleast)its none of there buisness especailly for non union guys who are about a quater of the office..i dont pick a choose which terms and cons to follow my contract i signed didnt mention this at all ,so arnt you a muppet for talking outta your arse again

and the next muppet calling me a scab..are you retarded do you know what your talking about,do you even know what a scab is apart from the things on your husbands testicles(yes i know your a man)

well that proves whole heartdly that non union dudes are not only discriminated against but bullied and harressed .and if you were any sort of man you wouldnt do it annonomusly ..pathetic ..i await having this deleted again


postman i hope you ban that idiot for harrasment too