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DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

Postal workers discussion forum. Discuss the day to day life in a Blue Shirt.
fishtank
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Re: DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

Post by fishtank »

lovejoy wrote:
fishtank wrote:
Lovejoy wrote
We cannot judge this agreement on fantasy views of what may or may not happen

:Applause :Applause :Applause :Applause :Applause :Applause

Best part of a post of the day.
Now if we could only get Dave & Bob to understand........... :hmmmm
cheap point scoring
Not really i've just never seen the position we are in summed up so well in only 15 words.
In order for this agreement to achieve even half it's objectives there would have to be a complete u-turn in Royal Mail management ethos.
And that Lovejoy is never going to happen.
Whether you like it or not this is no longer a service driven company.
Every single penny of profit this company has made in the last 5 years has been savings driven and the next three years will be more of the same.
And that is where your agreement will bend,buckle and finally break.
Savings plans and new relationships do not work well together.
I would have thought P&M would have taught you at least that.
good times, bad times you know I've had my share
DGP1
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Re: DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

Post by DGP1 »

Quick question for lovejoy

We were told be or DOM (and another manager who was in to back him up) that D2Ds will be treated as live mail and are to be cleared the day they are put out, is this acurate?
We were also told that the first non-sequenced revision will be the the business plan (ie. taking out 3 duties and lapsing them permantley), is this true?
We were also told that if we don't like it then they'll just look at making us PT, is this in the spirit of the agreement?
We were also told that if we wanted the 1 in 4 Saturdays off then we will have to lapse to deal with it (only Tuesdays mind you), is this right?

This agreement has answered none of the issues that I (or others in my office) have had, it only seems to make it worse for us.
I'm preparing myself for the zombie invasion, rule number 1 - Cardio
gb93
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Re: DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

Post by gb93 »

Surely not lovejoy i have not noticed :Very Happy

You put yourself out there lovejoy as do all of us on the forum :crazy:

Good health to you too.
This ain't no baseball game, you get only one chance and you blew it.
lovejoy
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Re: DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

Post by lovejoy »

DGP1 wrote:Quick question for lovejoy

We were told be or DOM (and another manager who was in to back him up) that D2Ds will be treated as live mail and are to be cleared the day they are put out, is this acurate?
We were also told that the first non-sequenced revision will be the the business plan (ie. taking out 3 duties and lapsing them permantley), is this true?
We were also told that if we don't like it then they'll just look at making us PT, is this in the spirit of the agreement?
We were also told that if we wanted the 1 in 4 Saturdays off then we will have to lapse to deal with it (only Tuesdays mind you), is this right?

This agreement has answered none of the issues that I (or others in my office) have had, it only seems to make it worse for us.
Your DOM is speaking complete rubbish on all of those points mate. I better get off b4 mrs lovejoy hangs me but will reply in full asap.
realmichael
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Re: DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

Post by realmichael »

dvbuk55 wrote:
realmichael wrote:i smell a rat with this workshop stuff.
get the vote out of the way and then forget it and leave it all down to a "local agreement"

the whole deal stinks imho
Here is a serious question in light of your view about the workshops or no apparent workshops as yet - do you, from past experience, think that local agreements is a conduit for further bullying in unrepresented or poorly represented areas and please be honest - my opinion I will withhold for now.


without a shadow of doubd b&h will go through the roof on the back of this deal. and the pressure on local reps will be too much for many to bear, while the boys at the top will sit back and put there feet up.and when all is said and done who in their right mind would want to be a rep and pick all the pieces up from this fiasco :crazy:
"Workers of the world unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains."
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dvbuk55
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Re: DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

Post by dvbuk55 »

lovejoy wrote:The reasons I didnt reply to DVbuks points about the agreement were because I was short on time but mainly because it was absolutely nothing to do with the thread and was his way of diverting attention from the fact that his fantasy thoughts on the aftermath of a no vote.

I don't really know why I am bothering because some people don't want the answers or the debate for some unknown reason.

Dvbuk said The 75/25 split is to be policed nationally, it is currently 79/21 so does that mean job losses, and how is the figure to be arrived at?

The 79/21 will move to 75/25. How anyone can deny that this is excellent negotiation given that RM wanted the dutch model 25/75 is beyond me. That figure will be monitored nationally at quarterly meetings. Some of the reasons it wasn't an office by office 75/25...... Well some units have stood up for themselves and have FT % well above 75 so why would they want to move downwards?

Also with some of the new innovative duty structures units may chose to increase part-time staff to increase the number of Saturdays off... a solid ratio would have hindered this.

Dvbuk said If it means job losses how is job security a part of this agreement?

Yes there will be job losses. Nobody has ever denied that but they will all come as part of natural wastage / VRs. And don't come back with you line about how it doesnt guarantee no compulsary redundancies. The MTSF never has. This 'get out' is aimed at situations beyond the control of anyone and usually reserved for managers!

Dvbuk said Is the projected figure for job losses 24,000 - Higson has already said it will mean fewer jobs - if it means job security for the ones who are left, how about the ones who aren't - do they fall into the category of winners or losers? How long will the ones who are left last after this 3 year agreement?

The only people leaving the business will be those who chose to. Does this make them a loser? No it doesnt it makes them someone chosing to lose and on better terms than those on offer prior to the dispute. At the end of the agreement who knows where we will be? Do you? We cannot judge this agreement on fantasy views of what may or may not happen. You were saying earlier you didn't want a 3 year deal now you are complaining about what happens after that!

Dvbuk said You conveniently state that there is no payment for D2D but a new delivery supplement - so what replaces the payment for D2D - is it the the remainder of the balance from the loss of the ESA? Which would be £8 pro rata for unlimited workload - or am I misrepresenting the figures - one of us must be?

Nothing money wise replaces the d2d payment. I have repeated this and yet you still havent got it. The CWU have managed to capture all the monies currently being paid out on d2d as part of a new permanent supplement paid 52 weeks per year.

On top of this the CWU have managed to get d2d into measured workload which will protect job.... surely as someone who professes to care so much about others you must agree that it is the right thing to do by protecting jobs ahead of a payment that is not even guaranteed week to week.

Dvbuk said The revision tools which will determine the workload aren't ready yet - so will they be issued before the ballot?

As far as I understand the meetings will take place in the next week and guidelines issued to branches / reps. I am not sure if they will be out before the ballot is the honest answer but RM have agreed to push no revisions until they are agreed to this gives us a very strong position.

Dvbuk said The fabled 1 in 4 Saturdays maybe even 1 in 3 Matrix, which is as we speak still be worked on, will that be ready before the ballot?

Dvbuk said Were any of the advisers to the negotiating team ever delivery officers in recent years or ever or even seen a delivery office?

Yes every single one of them has worked in a DO. Very sad that you have to resort to this level. On the other hand have you ever been involved in a set of national negotiations against the current backdrop?

Dvbuk said Oh one last thing - Scunthorpe lost 4-2 to the Seasiders - shame - now I wonder if there is message in that scoreline?

Just like my team Dvbuk, you let me down with the cheapshots :wink:
Lovejoy nothing you say deviates one iota from the official - everything is great line - it isn't and you should listen to the many posters on here who agree that this is not a good deal in any shape or form.

The 79/21 will move to 75/25. How anyone can deny that this is excellent negotiation given that RM wanted the dutch model 25/75 is beyond me. That figure will be monitored nationally at quarterly meetings. Some of the reasons it wasn't an office by office 75/25...... Well some units have stood up for themselves and have FT % well above 75 so why would they want to move downwards?

Yep those weak bastards again, you know the losers - BUT to reach 75/25 there will be a loss of jobs.

The only people leaving the business will be those who chose to. Does this make them a loser? No it doesnt it makes them someone chosing to lose and on better terms than those on offer prior to the dispute. At the end of the agreement who knows where we will be? Do you? We cannot judge this agreement on fantasy views of what may or may not happen. You were saying earlier you didn't want a 3 year deal now you are complaining about what happens after that!
How on earth can you claim the only people leaving will be those who want to? I don't know about judging the agreement on fantasy views it is a leap of fantasy in itself, I don't want a 3 year deal BECAUSE we don't know where we will be or what future financial strictures will be placed on us by whichever government is in power and I don't just mean as a company but as individuals as well, this recession is going to have to be paid for - do you know what VAT will be in 6 months time let alone 3 years.


Yes there will be job losses. Nobody has ever denied that but they will all come as part of natural wastage / VRs. And don't come back with you line about how it doesnt guarantee no compulsary redundancies. The MTSF never has. This 'get out' is aimed at situations beyond the control of anyone and usually reserved for managers!


You cannot claim this lovejoy it doesn't say this in the agreement does it - many things are implied BUT they are not the words.


Nothing money wise replaces the d2d payment. I have repeated this and yet you still havent got it. The CWU have managed to capture all the monies currently being paid out on d2d as part of a new permanent supplement paid 52 weeks per year.

On top of this the CWU have managed to get d2d into measured workload which will protect job.... surely as someone who professes to care so much about others you must agree that it is the right thing to do by protecting jobs ahead of a payment that is not even guaranteed week to week.


You say that so blithely lovejoy, no money replaces the D2D payment - actually nothing replaces that money certainly not the the new delivery supplement so conveniently captured from the people who were already getting it and given to those who weren't - I actually got it the first time round and so did thousands of delivery officers across the land - especially the part time officers! As for protecting jobs - that will only materialise IF the uncertain D2D market lives up to expectations otherwise it is a non-starter.

As far as I understand the meetings will take place in the next week and guidelines issued to branches / reps. I am not sure if they will be out before the ballot is the honest answer but RM have agreed to push no revisions until they are agreed to this gives us a very strong position.

Righto then,As you understand it isn't a yes and Royal Mail will definitely be waiting to implement change once the agreement is signed - yes of course they will!

Yes this will be ready this week. i saw some ideas last week and options are there for 1in4, 1in3, 1in2 and all saturdays off.

TBH lovejoy I can't wait to see this and so I hold judgement until it appears but it will have to be good and not involve any more work.


Yes every single one of them has worked in a DO. Very sad that you have to resort to this level. On the other hand have you ever been involved in a set of national negotiations against the current backdrop?

No lovejoy I have never been involved in national negotiations and I have never claimed to. What is sad about asking the credentials of people who are involved in these negotiations when clearly there is a fair sized gap between reality and this agreement? Speaking of which lovejoy you haven't responded to my honest declaration of my credentials both political and work area - you do have a work area I presume, the politics don't really interest me. Now don't disappoint me lovejoy and tell me you have a 9 to 5, Monday to Friday desk job and haven't seen a DO in twenty years - that will totally destroy your credibility.

I'd like to say you are very persuasive lovejoy, plausible? yes indeed but the fact remains that this deal does absolutely nothing for the delivery staff of Royal Mail not security of tenure, not a set of working revision tools, no defined delivery span, no clear workplan, no fair reward.

As for Scunthorpe - well there's always next week and for us - always the next deal :wink:
Last edited by dvbuk55 on 03 Apr 2010, 21:40, edited 3 times in total.
BELIAL
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Re: DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

Post by BELIAL »

lovejoy wrote:
drb wrote:1200 offices either agreed to them or let them come in by EA with no reaction.

We had EA in our office last year.We did want to do something about it,BUT we did not want to invalidate the local ballots.As a consequence our rep was charged( and still is),with trumped up charges. I promise you we would of gave them a spanking other wise....................
Fair play and it should be pointed out that there were a few offices in the same position as yours but that still leaves 1100+ accepting the change..... funny how those people are now the brave!
Thats an awful statement coming from a supposedly solid union member. 1100 offices thrown to the wolves because of crap representation /a failure of leadership/the flaws in the last deal and you sneer at ordinary members cos they suffered a defeat. No wonder membership levels are plummeting
Bye
dvbuk55
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Re: DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

Post by dvbuk55 »

lovejoy wrote:
gb93 wrote:Yeah rise above it lovejoy dont let yourself resort to cheap shots heaven forbid :no no
To be honest I shouldn't but when you are on the end of it for so long it's nice to slip a few in..... :shock:
I'll just bet it is and the air must be so much cleaner in Wimbledon :whistle Pillow talk perhaps? :angel
dvbuk55
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Re: DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

Post by dvbuk55 »

BELIAL wrote:
lovejoy wrote:
drb wrote:1200 offices either agreed to them or let them come in by EA with no reaction.

We had EA in our office last year.We did want to do something about it,BUT we did not want to invalidate the local ballots.As a consequence our rep was charged( and still is),with trumped up charges. I promise you we would of gave them a spanking other wise....................
Fair play and it should be pointed out that there were a few offices in the same position as yours but that still leaves 1100+ accepting the change..... funny how those people are now the brave!
Thats an awful statement coming from a supposedly solid union member. 1100 offices thrown to the wolves because of crap representation /a failure of leadership/the flaws in the last deal and you sneer at ordinary members cos they suffered a defeat. No wonder membership levels are plummeting
Well I've accused lovejoy of lots of things but I have never accused him of being humble :chuckle
dazzlin72
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Re: DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

Post by dazzlin72 »

With regards to the 1 in 4 Saturdays off, we were told that we would have to absorb on the other Saturdays worked, so really it was just a token gesture, but not practical in reality.
lovejoy
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Re: DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

Post by lovejoy »

dvbuk55 wrote:
lovejoy wrote:
gb93 wrote:Yeah rise above it lovejoy dont let yourself resort to cheap shots heaven forbid :no no
To be honest I shouldn't but when you are on the end of it for so long it's nice to slip a few in..... :shock:
I'll just bet it is and the air must be so much cleaner in Wimbledon :whistle Pillow talk perhaps? :angel
I'll reply to your other post in the morning Dvbuk, thanks for giving me something to read when I can't sleep tonight :wink:
Night Tonic
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Re: DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

Post by Night Tonic »

Well theres a surprise, shot their union and their own messengers - this is hilarious to read and anyone in Royal Mail management will think the same I'll bet. :crazy:
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proper postie
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Re: DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

Post by proper postie »

Night Tonic wrote:Well theres a surprise, shot their union and their own messengers - this is hilarious to read and anyone in Royal Mail management will think the same I'll bet. :crazy:
At least someone is laughing.....

To reiterate,a pay cut,longer hours,more work for less pay.

Vote yes
andy2007
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Enough with the personal insults!

Post by andy2007 »

Come on everyone. I know that this is an emotionally charged subject, but there's no need to get personal! Please just stick to reasoned debate.

Thanks.
Don't knock Insanity
it's just another outlook on Reality!
spilie
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Re: DVBUK 55's VIEWS ON WHAT HAPPENS IF IT IS A NO

Post by spilie »

NT you contribute nothing to any debate, everyone on here whatever thier point of view are either looking for answers or are offering answers you are just rubbernecking so please, give your take on things then we can all see what you have to offer