Theft by Royal Mail

[Minischoles]

There is no black market in confiscated items, believe me. I work in International Customer services, we're getting tons of calls and letters about this, as well as people making claims. At the moment, the items are being destroyed - either at Heathrow itself, or more commonly at the National Return Centre in Belfast.

Posting them back, presents a bit of a problem. As legally, they need to be labelled very specifically according to very strict guidelines in order to travel within the UK postal network - and if they aren't, you can actually face criminal prosecution. This is why currently, they are destroying them - however I will say that they are being a tad over zealous (that is they don't just destroy the prohibited goods, they destroy everything) and we are trying to get clarification from both Heathrow and the NRC on the matter, of exactly who has told them to outright destroy everything.

[Humdinger]

Hi everyone.......

I would like to join in on this issue here because it affects me both as a personal ebayer and as a business ebayer and as a website owner using distance selling.

This issue has popped up in my concerns window because some old electrical capacitors that I sent to an ebay buyer in Japan as a personal ebay sale have been intercepted and "destroyed" ; as it happens I was aware of the Dangerous and Prohibited goods list and capacitors are not on them! (Moreover since every item of electronic and electrical equipment made past or present contains capacitors, it would be unlikely since almost no electrical item could be shipped anywhere)

On the 30/03/13 I got an undated standard "interception of a parcel" letter stating that a parcel sent did not comply with the regulations covering the carriage of dangerous goods through the post; this contained no customer address, no date of posting reference, no sender details, only a barcode on the outside of the letter's address label. After hours of sifting through the Post Office counter receipts I managed to trace it to the small capacitors package sent to Japan on the basis that the barcode was the same.
The item was sent 07/03/13 using the International Signed For small packet service costing £14.35 for items worth £9.50 weighing 548 grams and I had been unable to use the Track & Trace system on it since the barcode number would not give a response and there was still nothing on the 30th when the letter arrived.
This is not as bad as losing hundreds of pounds worth of perfume but the customer in Japan will get a full goods plus postage cost PayPal refund, I will get an ebay black mark on my 100% perfect record and I have lost the goods and the postage I paid, so something like a £47.00 hit on a £9.50 sale with insured and signed for delivery postal cover

Finding this unacceptable I raised a letter of complaint to the Glasgow Contact Centre from whence the letter originated, pointing out that capacitors are not on the list of dangerous and prohibited goods and of course to date (18/04/13) have received no reply whatever.

So that's bad enough but then I realised that there is a limit on magnetic fields eminating from parcels, stated to be 0.159a/m at a distance of 1.2m from any surface; now this affects me as a business seller directly since a high percentage of my sales are for small to large speaker drivers which of cource can have very large magnets!
Going into this further, as an engineer, I know that expressing this in terms of amps/metre is incorrect as this only pertains to an item carrying a current which then generates a field around the conductor - the convention is to use Gauss or the more modern Tesla which are units of magnetic field strength and the other convention is to take 1m as the measuring distance.
As it happens, the Earth's residual magnetic field is around 20-50 microTeslas and if this 0.159a/m figure is converted into Tesla units (1a/m equals 1.26 microTesla) one gets a figure of about 0.2 microTesla which is around 0.4% of that of the Earth's static magnetic field.

This is clearly nonsensical and well beyond the limit of minimum measurement of any Tesla measuring equipment made by any company anywhere in the World.

So NOW what do I do?? Who do I raise these concerns with?

I certainly cannot risk Royal Mail stealing my goods on the basis that they put out a magnetic field that is certainly at least an order of magnitude greater than the that of the Earth's field so will no longer use Royal Mail for any shipping of goods as it's the only possible course of action I can take.

[P13]

Royal Mail do not make the law and these laws apply to all delivery companies not just Royal Mail

[barrowc]

This is an IATA (International Air Transport Association) packing instruction on magnetized material - http://www.iata.org/SiteCollectionDocum ... er2008.pdf (not sure if a more up-to-date one exists) The 0.159 A/m or 0.002 Gauss figure is quoted at the end of that instruction as being the upper limit for the goods to be classed as non-restricted

PACKING INSTRUCTION 953

This instruction applies to UN 2807, Magnetized material on passenger aircraft and Cargo Aircraft Only.

Magnetized material will be accepted only when:

(a) devices such as magnetrons and light meters have been packed so that the polarities of the individual units oppose one another;
(b) permanent magnets, where possible, have keeper bars installed;
(c) the magnetic field strength at a distance of 4.6 m (15 ft) from any point on the surface of the assembled consignment:
(1) does not exceed 0.418 A/m (0.00525 gauss), or
(2) produces a magnetic compass deflection of 2 degrees or less.

Note: For loading instructions see 9.3.11.

Determination of shielding requirements

The magnetic field strength of magnetized materials must be measured using measuring devices having a sensitivity sufficient to measure magnetic fields greater than 0.0398 A/m (0.0005 gauss) within a tolerance of plus or minus 5%, or with a magnetic compass sensitive enough to read a two-degree variation, preferably in 1 degree increments or finer. Methods of determining if a magnetized article meets the definition of a magnetized material include:

Method 1— When an oersted meter is used, it is placed on one of two points positioned 4.6 m (15 ft) apart and located in an area that is free from magnetic interference other than the earth's magnetic field. The oersted meter is then aligned with the second point and “balanced” to a zero reading. The magnetic article is then placed on the other point and the magnetic field strength is measured by reading the meter while rotating the package 360 degrees in its horizontal plane. If the maximum field strength observed is 0.418 A/m (0.00525 gauss) or less, the article is acceptable for air transport. When the maximum field strength exceeds 0.418 A/m (0.00525 gauss) shielding should be applied until a reading of 0.418 A/m (0.00525 gauss) or less has been attained.

Method 2— When a magnetic compass is used as a sensing device, it should be placed on one of two points positioned 4.6 m (15 ft) apart which are aligned in an East/West direction and in an area that is free from any magnetic interference other than the earth's magnetic field. The packaged item to be tested is placed on the other point and rotated 360 degrees in its horizontal plane for indication of compass deflection. When the maximum compass deflection observed is two degrees or less, the article is acceptable for air transport. When the maximum compass deflection of an item exceeds 2 degrees, shielding must be applied until the maximum deflection is not more than 2 degrees.

If the maximum field strength observed at a distance of 2.1 m (7 ft) is less than 0.159 A/m (0.002 gauss) or there is no significant compass deflection (less than 0.5 degree),the article is not restricted as a magnetized material

[dunroamin]

I have had a (very expensive) bottle of whisky seized by the Royal Mail and "destroyed". It was properly packed in a leak proof tube inside a cardboard shipping box designed for safe transit (this was done by the merchants where I bought the bottle). The item was clearly labelled and was sent (by me at my local post office) signed for at a cost of £17.50 - not a small amount. I'm very annoyed as, at no point was I told that I couldn't send this. I'm also surprised that I was not given the opportunity to collect it, if it was to dangerous to send through the post. I've made a formal complaint and I was interested to read the information as to "destruction" meaning "sold for profit" - I had asked for verification of destruction pics/CCTV etc but see now that this is just a quick buck for Royal Mail I can't see them getting away with this once they're privatised!

[LucasLCC]

First off, where were you sending this to? Was it an international or domestic parcel?

Secondly, what was the percentage of Alcohol in the Whiskey? Because if it's over 24% Alcohol, then it is Prohibited in Domestic Mail. This includes all services by both Royal Mail and Parcelforce.

If you're sending it abroad, then each country has their own rules. And it may be prohibited by them as well.

[UnhappyGremlin]

It wasn't stolen or sold off, it was destroyed as it contravenes the new rules that have been in effect for a while now.
Had the merchant actually bothered to check whether or not they could send the item safely and securely, in accordance with the 'new' rules, then this wouldn't have happened. It's their fault, not RM's.
I can't believe I have had to resort to defending RM. Feel dirty now.

[barrowc]

£17.50 looks like an international price: EU Small Parcel up to 1.750 kg £12.20 + ISF fee £5.30 = £17.50. If you told the Post Office clerk what you were sending then they should have advised you that it was prohibited.

Details on what's prohibited and what's restricted are in this booklet - http://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/ ... 2013_2.pdf

[carpathia_kuja]

We are a large Royal Mail user. In the past few weeks, we have inadvertently shipped a few parcels containing perfume by Royal Mail (International).
These parcels have been stopped by Royal Mail, and returned to us EMPTY , with the contents (worth several hundred pounds) "destroyed by Royal Mail".
Call me a cynic if you like, but I refuse to believe that these perfumes and aftershaves, (new, in sealed boxes) have been destroyed by anyone at Royal Mail.
Basically, as far as we are concerned, it is nothing more than theft.
We are now looking to switch our mail carrier elsewhere. I believe several other large organisations are following suit.

Yeah like several other large organisations are going to follow your decision to change carrier based on your personal bad experience.

[janitor]

Most large organisations choose the couriers on price, the weight and type of item goes into the computer, the cheapest and most suitable courier comes out, the software generally knows which goods wont be carried by which couriers, so maybe you large organisations mailing system needs overhauling, couldn't get Amazon to stop using a certain company no matter how many of my deliveries they delivered late or not at all. So if large organisations are going to stop using RM it will be due to price not anything else. The company which i was talking about earlier was not RM.

[quickmould2]

There is no black market in confiscated items, believe me. I work in International Customer services, we're getting tons of calls and letters about this, as well as people making claims. At the moment, the items are being destroyed - either at Heathrow itself, or more commonly at the National Return Centre in Belfast.

Posting them back, presents a bit of a problem. As legally, they need to be labelled very specifically according to very strict guidelines in order to travel within the UK postal network - and if they aren't, you can actually face criminal prosecution. This is why currently, they are destroying them - however I will say that they are being a tad over zealous (that is they don't just destroy the prohibited goods, they destroy everything) and we are trying to get clarification from both Heathrow and the NRC on the matter, of exactly who has told them to outright destroy everything.

If these confiscated goods are being destroyed then can someone tell me how someone is selling confiscated goods on Ebay? This person is selling large quantites of items mostly liquids in tins or bottles, some hazardous, some not. We recently made a test purchase from them and from the batch number on the prodct we are 100% certain this item was the same item confiscated from us by Royal Mail a month ago. And to add insult to injury the Ebay seller posted the hazardous item to us by Royal Mail!!

So if confiscated items are not being destroyed then someone at Royal Mail is stealing them.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

If you're suspicious then please report it. I hate thieving posties they are of equal stature to the pus on the strike breakers of a pox ridden whore, and should be found, dismissed and jailed.

[quickmould2]

There is no black market in confiscated items, believe me. I work in International Customer services, we're getting tons of calls and letters about this, as well as people making claims. At the moment, the items are being destroyed - either at Heathrow itself, or more commonly at the National Return Centre in Belfast.

Posting them back, presents a bit of a problem. As legally, they need to be labelled very specifically according to very strict guidelines in order to travel within the UK postal network - and if they aren't, you can actually face criminal prosecution. This is why currently, they are destroying them - however I will say that they are being a tad over zealous (that is they don't just destroy the prohibited goods, they destroy everything) and we are trying to get clarification from both Heathrow and the NRC on the matter, of exactly who has told them to outright destroy everything.

You are talking absolute rubbish. Royal Mail open parcels, the confiscated items are packed onto pallets then find their way to Wellers Auction in Surrey . Then Ebay sellers like sharonj2013 and sharonkind123 buy the "hazardous goods" pack them up again and put them straight back into Royal Mails system.
So either you are lying, don't know what you are talking about or some Royal Mail employees are nicking confiscated goods by the pallet load, one thing for sure they are not being destroyed.

[hantsman]

There is no black market in confiscated items, believe me. I work in International Customer services, we're getting tons of calls and letters about this, as well as people making claims. At the moment, the items are being destroyed - either at Heathrow itself, or more commonly at the National Return Centre in Belfast.

Posting them back, presents a bit of a problem. As legally, they need to be labelled very specifically according to very strict guidelines in order to travel within the UK postal network - and if they aren't, you can actually face criminal prosecution. This is why currently, they are destroying them - however I will say that they are being a tad over zealous (that is they don't just destroy the prohibited goods, they destroy everything) and we are trying to get clarification from both Heathrow and the NRC on the matter, of exactly who has told them to outright destroy everything.

You are talking absolute rubbish. Royal Mail open parcels, the confiscated items are packed onto pallets then find their way to Wellers Auction in Surrey . Then Ebay sellers like sharonj2013 and sharonkind123 buy the "hazardous goods" pack them up again and put them straight back into Royal Mails system.
So either you are lying, don't know what you are talking about or some Royal Mail employees are nicking confiscated goods by the pallet load, one thing for sure they are not being destroyed.

Then you simply inform the Police and Ebay.

[Minischoles]

Bear in mind my last post regarding this was made in February, shortly after the Dangerous Goods Act came into place. Since then more information is available, all items are now disposed of in line with RM policies - which for some items can mean incineration or storage while for others can indeed mean being auctioned off, it varies from item to item. Essentially once you post that item in breach of transport regulations it is Royal Mails and it can be disposed of in one of the manners listed above.

Now as far as I know, this does not include being put on eBay if sold it would be through an auction house, so if items are on eBay, you should report it to RM immediately if you can prove it. It may just be they were purchased at auction and sold on or it could be some scummy bastard thief.