Corbyn

Post by **dvbuk55** » 12 Aug 2016, 13:26

Well the lights went out on Corbyn last night and soon to be going out on his political career

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 12 Aug 2016, 16:06

At the moment all the polls give the Tories a 6-10 point lead, this is unprecedented at this stage of a parliamentary term, for example at this point in 2011 even with the next to useless Miliband in charge Labour held a 5 point lead.

At what point can we expect the voting public to have its epiphany, "get with the plan" and warm to Corbyn?

We could keep blaming the media but that's a constant in the equation so what grand plans do Corbyn's supporters have to get the message across that we stoopid plebs are obviously missing? More gate meetings with the converted waving cardboard placards? More smartarse faux intellectual musings at PMQs?

jetblack · Post by **jetblack** » 12 Aug 2016, 16:27

Well, seems like some of you "soft leftists"/working class tories might be in with a chance of saving us from Trotskyist revolutionaries scumbags after all. The High Court, true to form, has just come out in favour of the NEC re. new members right to vote (or not as the case may be).

What a farce this is becoming.

All cos the man wants to share out the pie. Look at where it gets you hey ?

Shameful IMO.

jetblack · Post by **jetblack** » 12 Aug 2016, 16:31

fishtank wrote: We could keep blaming the media but that's a constant in the equation so what grand plans do Corbyn's supporters have to get the message across that we stoopid plebs are obviously missing?

I've just had a really good idea. Why doesn't the Labour Party put up a candidate for leader that suits Rupert Murdoch ?

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 12 Aug 2016, 16:54

Calling people names isn't much of an answer.
Corbyn has had 15 months to make his mark as a serious politician, 15 months in which the Tories have been a soft target because of their internal bickering over Europe, 15 months to get the country behind a socialist alternative and the party has gone backwards.

I'm a pragmatic socialist jet, I've stood on picket lines and both talked the talk and walked the walk, I've seen just how much difference you can make to people's lives n opposition, it's a simple number...zero. "Hard Socialist" is just another name for failure. I would rather compromise some of my principles to do a little good than selfishly guard them and do nothing but shout from the side lines.

Post by **baldrick** » 12 Aug 2016, 17:01

jetblack wrote:
fishtank wrote: We could keep blaming the media but that's a constant in the equation so what grand plans do Corbyn's supporters have to get the message across that we stoopid plebs are obviously missing?
I've just had a really good idea. Why doesn't the Labour Party put up a candidate for leader that suits Rupert Murdoch ?

They already did:

article-0-199A715200000578-884_634x372.jpg

jetblack · Post by **jetblack** » 12 Aug 2016, 17:06

A battle of two visions by David Wearing of The Guardian

Putting aside the legal merits of today’s high court judgment, what does this episode tell us about what’s really happening in the Labour party?

Two fundamentally opposing visions are in conflict. The first seeks to market the parliamentary Labour party to majority public opinion, the press and big business as competent managers of the status quo. Here, the role of party members is to pay their fees, act as the doorstep infantry at election time, ratify predetermined policy decisions, and occasionally select a new party leader from a list pre-vetted by their elders and betters.

The second vision is one that sets the party a harder task: to win power in order to substantively change the country (as it did after world war two). This involves turning Labour into a social movement, with a mass membership playing an active day-to-day role in communities across the country, winning the battle for hearts and minds on the ground, countering the inevitable attacks from those with a vested interest in the Thatcher-Blair-Cameron settlement, and shaping party policy from the bottom up.

The Labour establishment, horrified by this second approach, is determined to strangle it in its crib. Hence this week’s retreat into “red scare” conspiracy theories and witch-hunts. Hence raising the registered supporters’ fee from £3 to £25, which will disproportionately affect Corbyn supporters, who are more likely to be working class. Hence the shameless disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of fee-paying members, which a high court judge upheld this afternoon.

While this has been going on, Owen Smith – the parliamentary Labour party’s candidate for leader – has been telling members that he shares their values and priorities and seeks only to pursue them more effectively. Would Smith stay committed to such an agenda if he won the leadership, or shift back rightwards once the vote was out of the way? A strong clue lies in the open contempt for members now on display from the party old guard standing behind him.

A good piece.

What do you want ? Your kids to grow up with no alternative (wether it be a Tory or Labour govt. won't matter either way) - or, in the short time you have on this earth, to leave the place a little better than you found it ?
If you want the former, then go with the NEC, the oxbridge elite, the Bullingdon Club, the Tories - it doesn't matter which. If however you want to give it a go for real and positive change, go with socialism, and so Corbyn and MacDonnell.

edit. LOL Baldrick - I nearly posted that picture myself.

fishtank · Post by **fishtank** » 12 Aug 2016, 17:39

The problem with that position is that nobody is buying the message jet, you can't build a mass movement without the masses, Corbyn doesn't have what it takes to engage those masses , his supporters are actively disengaging those masses and nobody has stopped to think...What do those masses who let's remember just voted in a Tory government actually want?

You can't build a mass movement by telling the masses what they want, you have to listen...to everyone, not just like-minded people.

Post by **dvbuk55** » 12 Aug 2016, 18:41

jetblack wrote:A battle of two visions by David Wearing of The Guardian

The second vision is one that sets the party a harder task: to win power in order to substantively change the country (as it did after world war two

There's the problem in a nutshell jet, nobody is living in the 40s, the 30s, the 20s or 1918 they do not share the same values that Corbyn is preaching. The small proportion of Corbyn supporters are lapping it up but they aren't going to win him an election. He simply does not appeal to the broad spectrum of labour supporters, he doesn't even appeal to the PLP nor his cabinet, that says a lot about his ability as a leader. He has about as much charisma as a wet fart.

Post by **britwrit** » 12 Aug 2016, 19:20

A six to ten point Tory lead, with only three and a half years to go until the general election? And with a recession on its way, along with a nasty Tory on Tory fight over Europe? Wow. Labour should just give up right now.

As a CWU member, I'm voting for Corbyn. The PLP as a whole didn't support us during any of the strikes. He and his band of malcontents did. They voted through the bill that led to our privatization. He and the awkward squad tried to stop it.

I don't really remember the Blair/Brown years as being a great time for socialism. If our goal is a Labour party five inches to the left of the Tories, we should raise our aims a little higher.

Tman · Post by **Tman** » 12 Aug 2016, 19:27

The aim is to unite behind a Labour party leader who can be a successful leader of the Opposition, and garner enough support from Joe Average to form a future labour government.
Feeble little speeches hoping to appeal to the 1960s throwbacks while the party implodes don't really hack it. Put the fool out of his misery somebody....

Post by **dvbuk55** » 12 Aug 2016, 19:38

Tman wrote:The aim is to unite behind a Labour party leader who can be a successful leader of the Opposition, and garner enough support from Joe Average to form a future labour government.
Feeble little speeches hoping to appeal to the 1960s throwbacks while the party implodes don't really hack it. Put the fool out of his misery somebody....

The problem is Tman he relishes the adulation the simple minded afford him, he doesn't see he's fronting a lost cause.

jetblack · Post by **jetblack** » 12 Aug 2016, 20:24

OK - quick question to DVB + FT + anyone else out there with similar views (which I'm struggling to understand, but seem to be, in a nutshell, "I can't vote for him cos no-one else will"

)

If, for example, someone younger, more charismatic (whatever that means to you), more popular and electable came along - and lets just say for the sake of argument that that someone was George Clooney....

.... and George still espoused the same socialist policies as JC (verbatim), would you vote for George ? Would we be still having this discussion ?

Post by **dvbuk55** » 12 Aug 2016, 20:48

You seem to have lost sight of the fundamentals jet, it IS the policies that are obnoxious not just Corbyn. He has all the attributes of a weasel and lacks any attractive features to lend himself to a photographic campaign to elect him. It's true to say that there needs to be a certain charisma or presence and a definite ability to be a good orator. He doesn't possess that. If he came to be, god forbid, the leader of the nation and then realised that he couldn't make good the promises would you still support him. All right minded people realise that there isn't a cat in hells chance of him fulfilling the promises made.

jetblack · Post by **jetblack** » 12 Aug 2016, 21:08

dvbuk55 wrote: it IS the policies that are obnoxious .

OK - I'm all ears DVB.

Could you be specific ? I've asked this several times now over the course of the 2 Corbyn threads and been ignored. I've cited his policies several times now to no comment. Neither yourself nor FT nor anyone else seems to be able to clarify. You seem more stuck on ridiculing the guy like a Kelvin McKenzie on steroids.

Lets start playing the ball and not the man hey ?