really really pissed off

[Ethilfrog]

Ethilfrog of course people just starting now have to start how we started, would you like a new starter to come in and after a week or so ne allocated the best duty in the office because I wouldn't and even more to the point I wouldn't even want a newbie to take my walk off me because as I see it I've been there 2yrs and I've earned my right to have that duty but I'd happily give it up to somebody who's been there for 1 day more than me because whether it's 1 day or 20yrs they have more seniority than me!

Ghostgirl, thank you for responding -- if you read my posts carefully you'll see I'm not suggesting that new starters be given the best duties, or take walks off their holders. And while I'm grateful for your offer to give up your duty in my favour (I have 8+ years to your 2) I must decline. It wouldn't be right.

If we both worked in the same office. and there was a resign, and assuming we are both physically capable (I am 57, in good nick for my age but I assume not your equal), all I'd ask is that you and I would compete on equal terms. In this case it might work in your favour. So it goes.

Thinking about it, I don't actually know of any company that rewards seniority to the extent that RM does.

[andy2007]

Ethilfrog of course people just starting now have to start how we started, would you like a new starter to come in and after a week or so ne allocated the best duty in the office because I wouldn't and even more to the point I wouldn't even want a newbie to take my walk off me because as I see it I've been there 2yrs and I've earned my right to have that duty but I'd happily give it up to somebody who's been there for 1 day more than me because whether it's 1 day or 20yrs they have more seniority than me!

Ghostgirl, thank you for responding -- if you read my posts carefully you'll see I'm not suggesting that new starters be given the best duties, or take walks off their holders. And while I'm grateful for your offer to give up your duty in my favour (I have 8+ years to your 2) I must decline. It wouldn't be right.

If we both worked in the same office. and there was a resign, and assuming we are both physically capable (I am 57, in good nick for my age but I assume not your equal), all I'd ask is that you and I would compete on equal terms. In this case it might work in your favour. So it goes.

Thinking about it, I don't actually know of any company that rewards seniority to the extent that RM does.

I think you've hit upon the biggest problem there: How would Management assess a Postie's capability properly?
You're right, that the senioriy method is seriously flawed, when we have people joining, who're older than those with 10 or even 20 more years in. But as most Duties require physical fitness, and that deteriorates at different rates in different people. IS there a way of calculating that?
I'll give you 2 examples. One hypothetical, and one real (as he's long since Retired):
The first person worked long past the official RM Retirement age, and did a very physically demanding Duty. So far, they've had no-one volunteer to do that Duty.
Another, is a Postie who used to be just as fast as everyone else, but started to struggle to keep up, as he's "getting on a bit".

Without the freedom of choice, which comes with high seniority. How would the one who's struggling be able to change his Duty to one where he could still cope?

Is there another way to assess this type of thing?

Although I do think that we should try to get a "weighting" system for the seniority. So older Posties gain extra places on the seniority list, because of their age.

[dvbuk55]

"Although I do think that we should try to get a "weighting" system for the seniority. So older Posties gain extra places on the seniority list, because of their age"

No I don't agree with that, and I would imagine most "seniors" would reject that. You could use the same criteria in a supermarket queue surely? The older you are the further up the line you go. The queueing system in this country is sometimes held in awe by foreigners where a queue of people wait orderly and in order until it is their turn.

And that is the system we operate, seniority is a misnomer in some respects, it is in fact a queue, because you wait until it is "your" turn but of course for some that is not enough, those are the ones with an overblown opinion of their worth - nobody has come up with a compelling reason to actually change it - what is wrong in waiting your turn?

[westlondonpostie]

In another post someone said, if not seniority, what would we replace it with. Other companies use such criteria as ability, aptitude, skills, physical capability. It's not difficult. Tesco does this and it is a successful company. RM is, in a very real sense, insolvent. (Aside: our mail centre has a skills register, but when they assign overtime and SAs it is never used. Plus they constantly direct a guy with a disintegrating knee towards the stand-up packet duty !) Truly, I do not understand what the problem is aside from simple incompetence.

I think if we were to go down this path it would create even more issues,
What could this possibly lead to? performance related pay perhaps, the more you sort or the harder the delivery the more pay you will receive, might seem appealing to some at the moment but with years to come as they get older how would they feel about the pay dropping when they are less able to do the same work they were able to do years ago, you may well have people taking work away from people which would equate to some taking home 3 times more pay but yet still working the same hrs.
How would RM assess peoples ability, aptitude, skills and physical capability, and surely this would completely lock out certain duties for individuals, how would you feel if you were taken off of you're duty and given something worse just because there was a younger man who could do it faster?
Some people have said," what about the people who have started the job later on in they're life shouldn't they have it easier", well no, in my opinion,they knew what the job entailed when they applied for the job.
I like to think of Seniority just like queuing, you join the back of the queue and move up you don't join the back see how long it is and say f**k this and push in just because you can't be bothered to wait in line like the ones ahead of you have done.

[andy2007]

"Although I do think that we should try to get a "weighting" system for the seniority. So older Posties gain extra places on the seniority list, because of their age"

No I don't agree with that, and I would imagine most "seniors" would reject that. You could use the same criteria in a supermarket queue surely? The older you are the further up the line you go. The queueing system in this country is sometimes held in awe by foreigners where a queue of people wait orderly and in order until it is their turn.

And that is the system we operate, seniority is a misnomer in some respects, it is in fact a queue, because you wait until it is "your" turn but of course for some that is not enough, those are the ones with an overblown opinion of their worth - nobody has come up with a compelling reason to actually change it - what is wrong in waiting your turn?

Why would they rejet that, when they'll run out of years, before they get anywhere on the seniority list. It's all very well struggling, when you know that there's light at the end of the tunnel. But if you start off with say 20 years before retirement, and need 21 years, to stand any chance of getting a break with the Duties. Then that's going to be very demoralising.

Would you want to start a new job, knowing that there was no possibility of being able to ease off a bit before retiring. Or that if you health started to fail, as you grew older, that you wouldn't have a chance of getting the Managers off your back, because you'll never have the seniority?

I didn't claim that it would be a good solution. But it's the best I can come up with. The only reason that I have enough seniority to get a decent Duty, is because we've lost so many people on EVR. And almost all of them had far more seniority than me. I'm currently just over half way up the list, after only 13 years service. Just a few years ago, I was in the bottom quarter. And would have had to wait for more than a dozen people to retire, before standing any chance of having much choice over what I did.

[dvbuk55]

Just wait your turn, it IS that simple - as the old saying goes - patience is a virtue, there is no need to change a system that works - in fact I would go so far as to say that we should have a resign as a matter of course every two years, so that newbies and managerial impositions aren't allowed to hold duties they are not entitled to.

Someone who joins RM at whatever age is entering a system that is seniority based - that's it.

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Someone who joins RM at whatever age is entering a system that is seniority based - that's it.

Exactly a reverse on the usual "If you don't like it leave" into "If you don't like it don't join"

[TrueBlueTerrier]

Also, can we have an answer to the question I put in a previous post:

Don't people who joined RM in later life deserve better than being treated as permanent second-class citizens ?

I joined just before my 40th birthday but agree with seniority however, don't understand the argument of being treated as a 2nd class citizen as seniority has nothing to do with age just loyalty and as long as my age is not taken into account then I am being treated the same as someone else of my age but with more time in.

If people don't like seniority would they suggest getting rid of OAP free bus travel.

[axeman]

There is no better system than seniority those that joined later in life no doubt had perhaps cushier job hence the reason for not joining royal fail till there later years. Problems are if you give the dim dums or indeed the local rep the reigns to decide the allocation of jobs is this going to be fair ? no way you have those that grovel at the feet of managers and on the other foot you have reps who are using the union angle to procure themselves a lino's job. i'm of the oppinion tough as iv'e come up through the crap jobs and now have a job i'm more or less happy with yes it's a shame if you started later in life as an opg but hey thats life get on with it

[dvbuk55]

Also, can we have an answer to the question I put in a previous post:

Don't people who joined RM in later life deserve better than being treated as permanent second-class citizens ?

I joined just before my 40th birthday but agree with seniority however, don't understand the argument of being treated as a 2nd class citizen as seniority has nothing to do with age just loyalty and as long as my age is not taken into account then I am being treated the same as someone else of my age but with more time in.

If people don't like seniority would they suggest getting rid of OAP free bus travel.

I am entitled to a free bus pass but haven't claimed it, so i am actually saving all these young people money.

[Pompey Boy]

I'm surprised by all of the support for seniority. It belongs in the past, no other employers use it and it is a form of discrimination (which is probably why no other organisations use it!). Also, it doesn't stop favouritism, as people who are friends or relatives of managers/union reps/duty officers etc ALWAYS get looked after, even if they have only worked at RM for a year or two.

[andy2007]

Also, can we have an answer to the question I put in a previous post:

Don't people who joined RM in later life deserve better than being treated as permanent second-class citizens ?

I joined just before my 40th birthday but agree with seniority however, don't understand the argument of being treated as a 2nd class citizen as seniority has nothing to do with age just loyalty and as long as my age is not taken into account then I am being treated the same as someone else of my age but with more time in.

If people don't like seniority would they suggest getting rid of OAP free bus travel.

I am entitled to a free bus pass but haven't claimed it, so i am actually saving all these young people money.

Why?
You've paid you NI over the years haven't you?
You paid for it, you're entitled to it, so why not claim it?
Or do you just not need one?

[andy2007]

I'm surprised by all of the support for seniority. It belongs in the past, no other employers use it and it is a form of discrimination (which is probably why no other organisations use it!). Also, it doesn't stop favouritism, as people who are friends or relatives of managers/union reps/duty officers etc ALWAYS get looked after, even if they have only worked at RM for a year or two.

In what way is it discriminatory?
You put the time in, you get the rewards of that loyalty. Regardless of who you are, and who you know.

Those that "get looked after", are breaking the rules of seniority, and you would be quite within your rights, to put a grievance in. If they are shown preferential treatment. The rules are there. Use them.

[axeman]

You seem to be able to spot them a mile off

[dvbuk55]

I am entitled to a free bus pass but haven't claimed it, so i am actually saving all these young people money.

Why?
You've paid you NI over the years haven't you?
You paid for it, you're entitled to it, so why not claim it?
Or do you just not need one?

The truth is andy - I don't need one, and I couldn't for shame claim for it and not use it.