R M National Attendance Procedure : Branch Ballot Result

[Martin Walsh]

You pay your money to the CWU to become a member. You then agree to operate under the CWU Rule book. That rule book has always put the power of reprsentaion of the members to the Branch's for obvious reasons they are closer to the members and the union cannot by remote control look after all the members from CWU HQ.

This is why the CWU is strong in some areas and weak in others cause it comes down to how good is the rep , the branch official, the branch and of course the members. In the same way how good are CWU HQ.

Now Bob Gibson has sent out email's on the SWW to all Branch's and to local reps do not do a deal on the SWW , yet whilst some of us are holding the line , too many have agreed and signed deals. Now there is no point the CWU saying something if Branch's , area reps , local reps and members agreeing to do the opposite and do a deal. It simply weakens the postion.

Us still holding the line are nearly always the same people who hold the line , we don't agree 100 BSI revisons , we don't agree later starts , we don't accept what Royal Mail say we argue and we negotiate.

I think Fish said we should all pull away form revisons , well we can't even get some people to wait and hold a line on the SWW let alone get some offices to pull away from revisons.

When people shout and moan about things and criticise the union , then you had better have held the line cause if you have not then you in partnership with Royal Mail.

[dvbuk55]

"Well you'd better hold the line" - what a crock of s**t!

Where was the line when we went into revision and the 39 hour week over a year ago, did anyone say "Don't accept 12 minutes a day - hold the line" did they feck.

IMHO the line is only drawn when the revisions/changes hit London and we are three years on otherwise the union are quite prepared to let things go on it's merry way. We don't accept this, we don't accept that, FFS there is either a national agreement as laid down in 2010 or there isn't - this agreement has been changed more times then a hookers knickers.

When the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing then that is disarray.

[Martin Walsh]

Dvbuk total red herring !! When you introduce your 39 hour week it should have been negotiated as part of the revison , you should have had a vote on the menu of options and you should have voted on the revison and you would have got the money.

This time there is no revison , no planning , no money and we have been told until there is a national agreement not to agree an agreement on the shorter working week.

So us who are holding the line are being stitched up by those who are doing deals against the unions request. Now when Royal Mail don't want to talk to the union on future change cause they can go to some offices and get better deals which suit them then speaking to the national union then I hope those offices realise what they have done.

Dvbuk your on the wrong track.

[fishtank]

Now there is no point the CWU saying something if Branch's , area reps , local reps and members agreeing to do the opposite and do a deal. It simply weakens the postion..

I'm not convinced the members in a lot of areas are aware of the union's national position.
I'm not even convinced a lot of local reps are either.
You would like to think in a situation like this the first thing a Branch would do is contact all of the local reps,either by a face to face meeting or phone call and explain the national position and the need to hold the line but i suspect too many Branches just mass email the LTB out and consider the job done.
I think the situation in some Branches is a lot worse than a lot of people think.
I think some Branches are representing nothing but their own self-interest and it's time to smoke them out and deal with them even if it means upsetting a few long "serving" faces.

[Lounge Lizard]

Were we each meant to get a vote on this? I never got a vote paper?

It's a Branch Ballot.
You don't get a vote.
It is assumed that your rep has discussed everything with you,taken on board the opinion of the members in your office and voted accordingly at the Branch.
The result of this Branch vote is then applied to the number of members in the Branch so if the Branch votes yes and has 3000 members that's 3000 yes votes.

NO ! This is the first I've heard of any ballot.

[dvbuk55]

Dvbuk total red herring !! When you introduce your 39 hour week it should have been negotiated as part of the revison , you should have had a vote on the menu of options and you should have voted on the revison and you would have got the money.

This time there is no revison , no planning , no money and we have been told until there is a national agreement not to agree an agreement on the shorter working week.

So us who are holding the line are being stitched up by those who are doing deals against the unions request. Now when Royal Mail don't want to talk to the union on future change cause they can go to some offices and get better deals which suit them then speaking to the national union then I hope those offices realise what they have done.

Dvbuk your on the wrong track.

Red herring my arse. When we negotiated our revision - two years before yours I might add, nobody knew what the position on the hour was and the 12 minutes a day was assumed to be the standard routine in the absence of any clear cut indication to the contrary. Our Branch and Area and Div Reps are a total disgrace, nothing is ever brought to the attention of the members at the shop floor level and the unit rep has lost all hope in there ever being any change to the status quo until someone dies! In a latest election there was just 2 candidates, the first we knew of it was when the election papers came through the door - one of the candidates was also the returning officer!

If 900 units have already gone through revision it's a bit late in the day to be drawing lines in the sand. The position on the 39 hour week should have been made clear to everyone by both parties, RM and the CWU long before now and for you to suggest that offices that have already had change have somehow reneged on some sort of invisible union stance is totally disingenuous.

[Martin Walsh]

Fish I get all that , but what would you or I do as a local rep if a manager came up to me and say I am introducing the SWW next Monday and these are our options. I think we would phone the area rep , branch , CWU HQs to find out what the union's postion was. Equally there is a always a members in an office where there is no rep who would have contacted a rep.

I know some Branch's may not got the message out to all units but a local rep or an office knows something is up if Royal Mail are trying to give you a 39 hour week.

[fishtank]

I know some Branch's may not got the message out to all units but a local rep or an office knows something is up if Royal Mail are trying to give you a 39 hour week.

The union pushes local agreement time after time.
Units are used to being isolated now.
Some Branches act as if they are the union.
HQ is seen as being distant and disengaged.
It's a recipe that encourages every man for themselves.
I'm disappointed but not surprised by the lack of solidarity.

We have only two choices,accept that the union will become more and more fragmented and obviously weaker as a result,more members will probably leave in the weaker areas,making the situation worse and we will end up increasingly with a two tier workforce and probably regional bargaining or we can attempt to do something about it.

I would prefer the second option but there has to be a consensus at HQ on what to do and how to do it,not a wringing of hands or burying of heads in sand hoping things will improve on their own..and whatever needs doing needs doing quickly...not a two year consultation on the maybes and mightbes.

[clashcityrocker]

If 900 units have already gone through revision it's a bit late in the day to be drawing lines in the sand. The position on the 39 hour week should have been made clear to everyone by both parties, RM and the CWU long before now and for you to suggest that offices that have already had change have somehow reneged on some sort of invisible union stance is totally disingenuous.

DVB you are talking crap.
There are 2 separate issues.
1. Offices that have had a revision are already on a 39hr week. How they chose to do that was up to them. There was no union stance on how it should be introduced as not every office is the same, and not every office would have wanted the same thing. Dingo isn't suggesting they have reneged on an invisible union stance.
2. Those offices that are now to get the 39hr week before a revision are being given 2 options:
Start 12 minutes later each day or start 30 minutes later Monday and Tuesday.
The option of taking that time off at the end of the day (which is what most people want and is how it was introduced in my DO) isn't there.

So the union is asking members not to vote on these options and not to do individual deals on the introduction of the SWW in units yet to have a revision.
And it isn't just London.

[dvbuk55]

If 900 units have already gone through revision it's a bit late in the day to be drawing lines in the sand. The position on the 39 hour week should have been made clear to everyone by both parties, RM and the CWU long before now and for you to suggest that offices that have already had change have somehow reneged on some sort of invisible union stance is totally disingenuous.

DVB you are talking crap.
There are 2 separate issues.
1. Offices that have had a revision are already on a 39hr week. How they chose to do that was up to them. There was no union stance on how it should be introduced as not every office is the same, and not every office would have wanted the same thing. Dingo isn't suggesting they have reneged on an invisible union stance.
2. Those offices that are now to get the 39hr week before a revision are being given 2 options:
Start 12 minutes later each day or start 30 minutes later Monday and Tuesday.
The option of taking that time off at the end of the day (which is what most people want and is how it was introduced in my DO) isn't there.

So the union is asking members not to vote on these options and not to do individual deals on the introduction of the SWW in units yet to have a revision.
And it isn't just London.

It's not crap - the issue is the same, 39 hour week with or without a revision, there is now a discussion on the application which didn't arise before. Suddenly it becomes imperative to have a 39 hour week without a revision, but as I understand it that was part of the 2010 agreement, sooooooooo get the revision get the 39 hour week and the money. The union now want to institute the 39 hour week without the revisions and wants to discuss it.

[Lounge Lizard]

If 900 units have already gone through revision it's a bit late in the day to be drawing lines in the sand. The position on the 39 hour week should have been made clear to everyone by both parties, RM and the CWU long before now and for you to suggest that offices that have already had change have somehow reneged on some sort of invisible union stance is totally disingenuous.

DVB you are talking crap.
There are 2 separate issues.
1. Offices that have had a revision are already on a 39hr week. How they chose to do that was up to them. There was no union stance on how it should be introduced as not every office is the same, and not every office would have wanted the same thing. Dingo isn't suggesting they have reneged on an invisible union stance.
2. Those offices that are now to get the 39hr week before a revision are being given 2 options:
Start 12 minutes later each day or start 30 minutes later Monday and Tuesday.
The option of taking that time off at the end of the day (which is what most people want and is how it was introduced in my DO) isn't there.

So the union is asking members not to vote on these options and not to do individual deals on the introduction of the SWW in units yet to have a revision.
And it isn't just London.

"Start 12 minutes later each day or start 30 minutes later Monday and Tuesday."
Assuming a rolling day off each week :
(1) Start 12 minutes later each day. - Yes, five days at 12 minutes totals a 60 minute reduction every week.
(2) Start 30 minutes later Monday and Tuesday. - That's an hour less if your day of is Wednesday, Thursday, Friday or Saturday but you're only given half an hour, down to 39½ hours, if your day off is Monday or Tuesday.